February 3, 2010 by Stacy McDonald

Television, Movies, and Men

Print Friendly

Failing to guard the eyes by watching movies that are specifically designed to stir up lust, or that focus on the sensuality of the (many times airbrushed) actress (not your wife) or the physical passion of the actor (not your husband) are likely to violate the purity and oneness of marriage that should be fiercely guarded.

Not surprisingly, most of the more questionable movies seem to be viewed by Christian men, rather than women. Most of the women I know wish, to some degree, that their husbands were more conservative with their movie choices. I am convinced that to the degree that a man is committed to guarding his eyes and heart, and honoring Proverbs 5:18-19, his wife will respond with willing affection and intimacy.

Before I go too far with this, I’d like to get your feedback. Please be sure to vote on the poll in the right hand sidebar.

The following quote is taken from Matthew Henry’s commentary on Job 31:1, and should be a challenge to us all as we seek to honor the Lord, and the marriage bed:

Those that would keep their hearts pure must guard their eyes, which are both the outlets and inlets of uncleanness. Hence we read of wanton eyes (Isa. 3:16) and eyes full of adultery (2 Pet. 2:14). The first sin began in the eye, (Gen. 3:6). What we must not meddle with, we must not lust after; and what we must not lust after, we must not look at…Mat. 5:28.

Those are not chaste that are not so in spirit as well as body, 1 Co. 7:34. See how Christ’s exposition of the seventh commandment agrees with the ancient sense of it, and how much better Job understood it than the Pharisees…” –Matthew Henry

See Also:

Nudity and the Christian Worldview

Are You a Peeping Tom (or Tammy)

 



Similar Posts:

72 Responses to “Television, Movies, and Men”

  1. Beth says:

    This is a very sensitive topic. How do you get your husband to be more open to sharing his temptation with all this immorality in our culture. We do not watch much television or movies but just going to restuarants and public places it is hard not to see his eye traveling to people who are immodesty dressed. He doesn't want to admit his faults. It is very sad and it does affect my trust in him.

  2. Ginger says:

    What good is it for us women to discuss what our men should be doing? Thankfully, since my man got saved (after being a professing Christian since childhood), his standards line up with the Bible regarding what his eyes should see. But I'm wondering what the fruit of this discussion will be for the women who aren't so blessed. Will they not only become more resentful towards their men? Sincerely asking.

  3. Michellel says:

    Well movies are easy to avoid, you can choose not to watch them.
    Job said He made a covenant with his eyes to not look lustfully on a woman. (It takes discipline to train one's eyes to look away.)

    I have to deal with this with my own children just when we walk through Walmart. (Especially around the video section where they now put new release movies in the middle of the isle.) The images he mostly complains of are the violent looking ones. And of course they are at his eye level.

    The thing I hate is when you are watching shows that are ok (sports) and the commercials are lewd. Even Hardees (A restaurant) has decided to use s*x to advertise. And many that advertise upcoming shows are just terrible in what they show!

  4. Stacy McDonald says:

    Ginger,

    The poll is designed to gather information so that my husband can address the men. Most men are totally oblivious to the fact that whether or not they guard their eyes affects their marriage.

  5. Persuaded says:

    I always glad to see this issue addressed, as its effect on my own marriage can not be overstated. I received some very bad advice when we were first dealing with this issue… not that I think there was much I could have done to change the way things played themselves out in my family. Had I received better counsel, I think my own pain and the damage to my children might have been lessened.

    Michellel… my young son has expressed to me the difficulty he has when we are shopping as well… the ladies lingerie dept. is thing he specifically mentioned. SO we try to avoid that area as best we can, and he is working on averting his eyes when we can't. Frankly, I was shocked that we had to deal with this at such a young age (Color me ignorant, I guess *blush*)I agree that it takes discipline to train one's eyes to look away. And a mama's prayers;)

  6. Elizabeth says:

    very cute graphic to balance out a serious and uncomfortable topic, Mrs Stacy. Love it.

  7. Stacy McDonald says:

    I might add that my blog readers are some of the most conservative Christian women online. I'm sure the poll would turn out differently if I polled a more mainstream group.

    That said, even the most conservative marriages are affected – especially when our culture so openly flaunts sexuality to those who aren't even looking for it.

    Women today already struggle with insecurity from childhood. From an early age, they are flooded with images of what the "perfect" body is supposed to look like, and it is usually born out of the imagination of a man with good Photo-shop skills.

    I'm hoping that my husband will be able to use the information here to put something together that will help men understand how much their faithfulness in this area will help their wives and bless their marriages.

    It is very difficult for a woman to be open and trusting with her husband during intimacy when she feels like she is competing with the "perfect" phantoms of his mind. When a husband allows his eye to wander, a wife usually begins to distrust him to some degree, and may struggle with feelings of betrayal.

    That is because in a very real way, lust is adultery.

    “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart." (Matthew 5:27-28)

  8. Deal Queen says:

    We are so wonderfully blessed not to have a television at home. Only 1% of US households make this choice.

    We have replaced television time with activities such as reading Spurgeon sermons to each other, adventure sports, running, cooking, gardening, discussing politics, practicing hospitality and intentional prayer time.

  9. Grace McHugh says:

    My husband is great in this area. He actually had to teach me about dressing modestly when we first met. I was clueless and basically he told me why I had to change my mode of dress or I could not go out in public with him. Wow! I was not the meek, quiet spirit in those days. How thankful am I he took the time to explain to me what my parents failed to teach me. He is very sensitive to this and our children will reap the benefits of his wisdom. We do not have cable. Just a TV for movies. He and I have chosen to not watch R rated movies and even most PG 13 are not acceptable. An R movie would be acceptable, for instance, if it were a war movie based on true history. You have to weed out the facts from the trash. We went to the movies for the first time in two years last weekend. PG movie but the previews! Over stimulating with sound and action and the sneaky flesh scenes. Appropriate preview for all ages???? Who are they kidding? Back to your topic, we just really think about a situation before we get put into it. Time consuming, annoying but……….worth keeping our hearts and minds pure. As the song says "oh be careful little eyes what you see." Just as applicable to adults as our precious children.

  10. proud2Bmomma says:

    I voted that I was perfectly content with my husband's viewing choices because that was the closest to how I feel. In regards to nudity on television (Biblical standards of nudity – not modern standards of nudity) I am fairly pleased with my husband's choices. There was a point where I was very unhappy with one particular show but when I addressed it with him and he saw I was serious, he immediately quit watching it. We have a DVR and we watch NO live television except for the occasional ball game. We don't watch commercials and if something questionable comes up, we skip it or delete it all together. In his television and personal nudity standards, I'm very pleased with my husband's standards and he never makes me feel like he needs to allow his eyes or thoughts to wander to be satisfied.

    The area I'm not happy with his television standards is in profane language. I'm actually going to look into purchasing one of the machines that removes profanity because this is just one area I'm not going to win and I'm not going to nag about.

    So I'm happy with his nudity standards but not completely happy with his standards all around. I don't know if that makes any sense.

  11. Stacy McDonald says:

    To me, the profanity issue is completely different because it's not a personal offense (adultery). I can leave the room and not have to listen to the profanity, but if my husband were viewing a naked woman, my leaving the room wouldn't change the fact that damage is being done to our marriage (and my trust).

  12. Stacy McDonald says:

    I like what John Piper says here:

    “I have a high tolerance for violence, high tolerance for bad language, and zero tolerance for nudity. There is a reason for these differences. The violence is make-believe. They don’t really mean those bad words. But that lady is really naked, and I am really watching.” – John Piper, Why I Don’t Have a Television and Rarely Go to Movies

  13. Brandy Lynn says:

    Both my husband and I saw negative examples of this very issue while in our youth, and due to that, it has really helped my husband and I to take a definitive stand on this issue. We have chosen to own a television, however, it is purely for movie viewing. Movies of which we both approve. Sadly, however, we've even found that movies that are advertised for "families" often do not make our approved list… as women may be "dressed" with too much showing. (eg. cleavage showing, uncovered waistlines, tight clothing that leaves nothing to the imagination, etc.)

    I know it is difficult for my husband to guard his eyes in public as well, but I *DO* see him making a strong effort to do just that. I know off topic, but it isn't just the movies that can be a struggle for men. I even wish at times I could cover his eyes for him while at church! I feel sorry for the men who really want to keep pure before the Lord, and must be assaulted with such things at every head turn.

  14. Christi L. says:

    We use the Clearplay system and so don't have to worry about movies that are supposed to be family friendly but aren't. It is great, and since our tv is only for movies, I'm very comfortable with my husbands choice to protect our marriage this way.

  15. Deborah says:

    My husband is not a Christian and is not terribly offended by nudity.
    He is very offended by scenes of graphic violence against women, or violence in general.
    I don't watch a lot of television. When he is watching questionable shows I just go in the other room and sew or read.
    He does not see that exploiting the human body for financial gain is violence, but I am very grateful that he does not insist that I watch tv with him and that he stays away from graphic violence.

    There are a few clean shows that we enjoy together.

  16. Jennifer says:

    This isn't a tool to nitpick Ginger, it's addressing a real problem. If you husband's acting in a way that harms either you or himself, you can't ignore it by simply thinking "Well, it's not MY place"..

  17. Jennifer says:

    "I have a high tolerance for violence, high tolerance for bad language, and zero tolerance for nudity"

    I feel just the opposite: foul words are foul words and less necessary than violence. Many violence scenes now are unnecessary and violence in and of itself is unpleasant and gruesome, even if justified; nudity on the other hand is natural and even non-sexual in many movies (though granted not the majority). I'd let my son see a woman non-sexually naked before I ever let him see a man's head be blown off or a person's body be mutilated or blown apart; while modesty is vital, kids need to be taught that the body is not something to be inherently ashamed of and to see it in a non-sexual manner unless presented that way. I learned this through my collection of art and plan to pass this on to my kids; nude mermaids and fairies are acceptable, sadistic violence is not and neither is a high tolerance of it.

  18. L says:

    Glad you are approaching this topic. It affected my marriage. What you are discussing led to all kinds of "behaviour" by my ex during our marriage and his multi-relationships, his child, and our divorce. It has been 17 1/2 years and my children and I still reap the effects of his sin.

    While we are doing ok, I wonder what it would have been like to not have a trashed marriage and how differently my children would have been because of a godly marriage. Maybe I would not have had to work 3-7 jobs at a time just to keep food on the table. Please tell your husband that this topic is huge and the consequences affect generations to come.

  19. Stacy McDonald says:

    From a YSC reader who asked to be kept anonymous:

    Stacy,

    I didn't answer your poll because none of the answers really fully lined up with what's going on within my marriage. My husband still buys mainstream movies that have sex and nudity in them. I refuse to watch them, so he watches them in his man-cave. I have "caught" him skipping over the sex and nudity parts when he didn't know I was there (not spying, just didn't realize I was near). We've talked about it, but I never really got an answer on how he feels other than he can take it or leave it. As for me, I told him I avoid watching such things because I DO like it.

    Regardless, knowing that these DVD's are in the house and available for him to watch bothers me. I know he loves me and finds me sexy, but knowing these other naked women are prancing about his eyes makes me feel ugly and does hinder our husband and wife time. Also, sometimes I think about these DVD's a if they're worldly idols that God asked us to destroy, but instead, like some of the Israelites in the OT, they just buried them. In our case, they're in the man-cave and not in the living room.

    I don't entirely blame my husband, even a little. It is so blatent this day and age that I feel sorry for the Christian man who falls prey. It's just too easy.

    Also, so many times the focus is on the man, but women, Christian women fall prey, too. I've fallen prey to the wiles found on the internet and in movies. I am guilty on my own account for hindering our marriage bed, too.

    We can martyr ourselves as the sanctified wives of easily swayed husbands, but please understand how EASY this snare is!! It is one of the easiest and most fundamental ways Satan tries to destroy the Christian home and family.

    I fight against it and against any resentment and upset that also contribute to the destruction. I pray against it…against the temptations we both face, especially now that God has sent my husband away from home for his job.

    Sorry this is so long, but it really plucks a chord in my life.

    This is highly personal, so I ask that you do NOT post this in your comment section unless you can make me more anonymous. Thank you.

  20. Stacy McDonald says:

    Jennifer,

    I highly doubt that John Piper was talking about sadistic violence. I'm sure he meant violence as in war movies that depicts the reality of war. Although personally I prefer the way they did it in the old black and white movies where they didn't show all the blood etc.

    Either way, Jennifer, since you have never been married, you can't possibly know what it's like to have the one who is supposed to be enraptured with YOU alone, stare at the nakedness of another woman. It's a degrading, sick feeling.

    You said:

    "Nudity on the other hand is natural and even non-sexual in many movies…"

    I can't imagine any healthy man being able to watch a beautiful, naked woman in a movie (whether or not she is involved in a sex act) without being aroused to some degree.

    I had a similar conversation with my 19 yo daughter and I finally realized she just can't "get it" yet. She has never experienced marriage and has never known that mysterious oneness.

    "My beloved is mine, and I am his…” (SOS 2:16) "I am my beloved’s, and his desire is toward me." (SOS 7:10)

    My beloved is MINE…that includes his eyes.

    Jennifer, Scripture does say that it is shameful to expose our nakedness in public. Within marriage, it is a beautiful and holy thing to share our bodies with one another. But we are not to expose our nakedness to strangers. Neither are we to view the nakedness of others.

    "That you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed." (Revelation 3:18)

    "Your nakedness shall be uncovered,yes, your shame will be seen…" (Isaiah 47:3)

    “I have made a covenant with my eyes; why then should I look upon a young woman?" (Job 31:1)

    Personally, I think part of what is happening is that because of our culture, our men are becoming desensitized to nakedness. They see it on every street corner. There is nothing hidden anymore.

    Most young men growing up today have been conditioned to view certain body shapes as perfect, and others not so much.

    If they've viewed porn, which is becoming more and more common, they've memorized sensual images of women who don't even look that way themselves (at least not without special lighting, airbrushing, and photoshop touchups).

    By the time most men marry they have seen just about every size and shape of breast you can imagine.

    So if the guy happens to marry a woman who is "average", or even less than average, he may be less excited to see her body – after all it's not that big of a deal anymore – and he's "seen better." Obviously, I'm exaggerating a bit here, but I'm trying to make a point. God WANTS the wife's body to take the husband's breath away.

    "As a loving deer and a graceful doe, Let her breasts satisfy you at all times; And always be enraptured with her love." (Proverbs 5:19, NKJV)

    Imagine a man who had never seen a naked woman before – outside of a biology book. Imagine too that most of the people he grew up around dressed respectfully. Now imagine his wedding night. Imagine the anticipation. No matter what his bride looked like to you or I he would be completely star struck by her beauty!

    I think that's what guarding the eyes is all about for the married man. He should only have eyes for his wife. There shouldn't be images of other women's bodies floating through his memory.

  21. Jennifer says:

    This doesn't have to do with marriage; obviously if my husband were doing this I'd have a problem, but I'm speaking of training boys at a young age. And as a matter of fact, I do know what it's like to have myself degraded in favor of paltry fantasies. Not comparing myself to wives, but it's happened.

    "I can't imagine any healthy man being able to watch a beautiful, naked woman in a movie (whether or not she is involved in a sex act) without being aroused to some degree."

    Actually various artists do just this; it's the Americanized stereotype that nudity always has a shade of sex which nurtures such behavior.

    "God WANTS the wife's body to take the husband's breath away"

    And he should do this because it's HER body, not because he's never seen one before.

    "We are not to expose our nakedness to strangers. Neither are we to view the nakedness of others"

    True, but I don't think God views all art as quite the same.

  22. Mrs. Parunak says:

    I find myself wondering what percentage of the women in the top "content" category have had a genuine heart to heart with their husbands about lust. Do they truly understand what is going on with their husbands in all aspects of this area, including outside of movies and television (porn, looking at immodest women out in the world)? I think this issue is HUGE, and it is wonderful that your husband is seeking to address it.

  23. wifeandmom says:

    My husband has pretty high standards regarding what he watches but hardly anything anymore is completley free of filth. I do not watch any TV and watch movies with my husband only if they are totally clean or have a spiritual base like Fireproof, Facing the Giants, Faith like Potatoes, Ushpizin etc… I hope he will one day abandon wordly TV and movies altogether. God is able to make such a change in him and I need to be in prayer for this. Ginger has a point about women who are hurting from what their husbands watch but we can turn it around to prayer. Pray for these husbands that God will change their hearts and appetites for He alone can.

  24. Stacy McDonald says:

    Can I call you J? :-)

    I see your point and appreciate it. I don't mean to sound like lust is such a captivating force that no man can conquer it without hiding his head in the sand. LOL I'm simply saying that playing with fire one can get burned.

    I used to think this sort of thing didn't affect most Christian men at all. I was shocked one day when we visited a church where they were having some sort of odd "public confession" time. I was so disturbed by what my husband told me many of these conservative Christian men (some elders) confessed to regarding pornography and lusty movies. I mean really shocked. Perhaps I was naive, but it really opened my eyes.

    I think my husband was a little shocked too and it made us more aware of how important it is to guard our emotional purity, as well as our physical purity, since it's all related.

    After my husband became a pastor we were faced with the subject again as we counseled with numerous married couples who struggled with this sin (both men and women at times). My husband found the following statistics and shared them in a sermon he preached last year:

    Promise Keeper men who viewed pornography last week – 53%

    51% of pastors say cyber-porn is a real temptation for them.

    37% say it is a current struggle.

    47% percent of families said pornography is a problem in their home (Focus on the Family Poll, October 1, 2003).

    The Internet was a significant factor in 2 out of 3 divorces (American Academy of Matrimonial Lawyers in 2003 – divorcewizards.com).

    In counseling with folks who struggle with this (and there are far more people than we ever realized) we have found that movies and television (the types we've described) often feeds the lust they are hoping to avoid.

  25. Stacy McDonald says:

    "True, but I don't think God views all art as quite the same."

    Jennifer, can you give me an example of a movie that depicts "artistic nudity" that is non-sexual, and where it would be unlikely that most men would be aroused by it?

  26. Step says:

    I voted that I am completely content. I am, today, but it didn't always used to be so earlier on in our marriage. No graphic nudity or anything like that, but we never put much thought into the movies/tv shows that we watched either. It's the subtle innuendos that can sneak up on you and before you know it, you've become accustomed to these types of shows.

    I think thoughtful prayer and consideration is the key. Don't make the mistake of thinking that it just a simple movie or show, what harm can it do? I am glad to say that now we really monitor our choice of shows and I am content in this area.

  27. Jennifer says:

    Hi again, Stacy. Thanks for asking.

    "can you give me an example of a movie that depicts "artistic nudity" that is non-sexual, and where it would be unlikely that most men would be aroused by it?"

    I can't predict when men will or won't be aroused, but I can give a few examples of non-sexual nudity. The film "Splash", while containing sensuality, has surprisingly no scenes of sexual nudity; the mermaid in the film is topless and seen walking nude at one point, in both cases just acting as a creature in or around her elements. "I Capture the Castle" is a British film rated R entirely for nudity, none of which is sexual. In "Photographing Fairies", the primary nudity is that of the fairies and not at all sexual. The film "Open Water 2" shows the protagonists at one point naked in the water, usually the men; in "Carrie" some young women are shown in the beginning of the film getting out of the showers in a locker room. During the film "Elizabeth: The Golden Age", Elizabeth is seen briefly looking at herself unclothed in the mirror. In the Emma Thompson version of "Much Ado about Nothing", the beginning of the film shows many young maidens and young men, in separate places, thinking of each other. They then prepare to meet each other and both genders, like so many nymphs, are shown dashing around unclothed and bathing outdoors.

  28. Stam House says:

    My husband make me watch movies before he view them for me to approved them LOL cause we have been very badly surprise seeing some nudity is some movie that were not rated with the nudity content and that the story seams not to be indicating that their would be any nude (male or female)in that movie!!!!

    Those movie makers are very sneaky!!!!

  29. mamma bear says:

    http://www.therebelution.com/modestysurvey/
    Just so there is no "guessing" about how God made men. Men are visual because God made them that way. And yes, those images are permanently burned into their minds.
    God covered Adam and Eve because they were suddenly aware of their nakedness and they were ashamed.

  30. Stacy McDonald says:

    Oh my, Jennifer, all I can think is that you are very young and very naive if you think any man can watch a group of "young maidens…dashing around unclothed and bathing outdoors" and not become aroused sexually.

    Ask your dad or ANY man for that matter. A lot of young girls think the way you do. Most men even struggle with girls who are DRESSED, but showing too much skin. Women don't think like men; that is why they put together the Rebulation survey that Mama Bear sent in. Check it out; that way you can hear what men struggle with straight from the horse's mouth.

    There is a reason movie makes put naked women in movies, and it's not for the female viewers.

    J – I would think it would be very different for an ob/gyn (or any doctor). It's not like he's sitting there watching a young, shapely model disrobe in front of him, or frolic around the room. He's looking at specific body parts, in a medical setting, with a medical mindset, with an assistant beside him.

  31. Jennifer says:

    You didn't ask me to personally interpret/guess what every viewer's mindset would be, Stacy. You asked in what movies there was artistic nudity, and I answered; if you thought every man would be roused at any attractive and unclothed female body, no matter how it was presented, there was no point in you asking me this. In that particular film, there was an equal amount of male and female nudity, and it was even pg-13; not every body part was shown. The point is, it couldn't have been less sexual. As I've said before, men are perfectly capable of training themselves to see a woman's body as more than something sexual; if they don't bother trying, like a great deal of the artists I pointed out, that's their problem. Trust me when I say that I'm not in the least naive about men and lust; I'm not a sheltered homeschool girl, or a young teen.

  32. Jennifer says:

    Saw the survey. Some of it seemed helpful and the young men responsible, but others had real problems: asking girls not to let their chests bounce, when the question of running/walking came up?? What are we supposed to do, cut them off? 65 guys had a problem with calf muscles and one guy actually said shirts with collars beneath the collar bone were a problem when girls bend over; altogether, if I were to combine all the silliest comments and suggestions from these boys, they would amount to asking women not to wear jeans, run, lie down, show their knees, or bend over. Some guys even said "depends on the height of the breasts" when speaking of shirts, which made me uncomfortable and start to wonder if this survey had some men thinking too much of body parts. Most offensive was when some guys started telling us what kind of underwear to wear. Most were mature, but some were just ridiculous and presumptious.

  33. Jennifer says:

    I hope my second-to-last comment wasn't too harsh. I don't believe homeschooled girls are inherently naive; I just meant that being public schooled and exposed to boys outside the family tends to disillusion girls pretty quickly.

  34. Mrs. Webfoot says:

    Actually various artists do just this; it's the Americanized stereotype that nudity always has a shade of sex which nurtures such behavior. >>>>

    It is also the Latin American stereotype.

    Nudity tends to be sexy wherever you go.

  35. mamma bear says:

    The modesty survey tells it like it is. It does not matter that someone doesn't like what it says. It is a useful tool to show women how men actually think.
    Let's not get too hung up on what "one" guy says–but when the same theme keeps appearing over and over, you can be sure it is a stumbling block to many. We are responsible for what we do with that knowledge. Scripture is clear that we put no stumbling block in our brothers' path.
    This is a heart issue, and should not be a big deal to any woman who desires to glorify God above all else.

  36. Stacy McDonald says:

    "Actually various artists do just this; it's the Americanized stereotype that nudity always has a shade of sex which nurtures such behavior."

    "It is also the Latin American stereotype."

    Amen. Many people call the Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue "art" too, and technically it is non-sexual. I dare say GQ and various other "men's magazines" call their work "art."

    Many years ago, before I became a Christian, I had a friend who photographed naked women – in non-sexual, "artistic" type poses. He was very "professional" and very proud of his work; and he insisted on what he called "tasteful art." He never photographed anyone completely nude – at least not with everything showing at once. He used lots of shadows, draping, special lighting, and various other "artistic" methods of photography techniques. By the way, his wife was totally fine with his work.

    One day I told him how amazed I was that photographers like him could photograph naked women and not become aroused. He laughed his head off. He told me he was aroused (his words were more blunt) every single photo shoot. But he never acted on it – it was just part of the job. He said "all artists" who paint or photograph nudes deal with that. He said you get used to it.

  37. Chelsey says:

    Jennifer,
    You said, "True, but I don't think God views all art as quite the same."

    I'm going to ask you a question, and you need to hear my heart on this and try not to read a "tone" that isn't there…

    But, isn't that a bit presumptuous on your part to assume that you know the mind of God. How do we, then, know the mind of God? Through His Word.

    Stacy gave wonderful Scripture showing God's words on nakedness. I'm just wondering if you can show Scripture to prove otherwise.

    I am the mom of six children and four of them boys – one a young adult. Even looking at a young lady in her bra and underwear in an ad can be an arousal for a boy/man let alone a naked body, it doesn't matter if it is sexual or not.

    You are not married and don't have children, so I can understand how your view might be different. But, as a married woman and a mother I have experience in this area, more than I ever cared to, and know that while God created our bodies to be beautiful, he did not intend them to be made for public viewing!

  38. Jennifer says:

    What a shame your friend had such hidden urges, Stacy. I daresay if all artists were like that (and obviously I don't mean the Sports Illustrated goons, which are a faulty comparison just because they might call their shots "art") it would be obvious. And for the record, my father and every Christian man I know watches good R movies like calm adults.

    "He said "all artists" who paint or photograph nudes deal with that."

    How amusing. Generally when one says "all people do this" it's really a way of coping with the fact that they do it.

    "The modesty survey tells it like it is."

    Not nearly so simple, Bear. It offers some mens' opinions and luckily, many aren't as rigid and helpless regarding male urges as you might think.

    "Let's not get too hung up on what "one" guy says"

    It clearly wasn't "one" guy, and I have a right to be affronted by men who can't look at women in normal positions or who take liberty discussing our breast sizes and giving us advice on personal garments. These guys have issues we're not responsible for.

  39. Jennifer says:

    I don't claim that I know the heart of God better than anyone else here, Chelsea, and certainly not completely! What terrifying pride and simplicity that would be. If God doesn't explicitly forbid something, I look at the rest of His words. True, He forbids public nudity, but that's not the same as art. He also sees sex as sacred and private, yet didn't He publish Solomon's intimate and detailed thoughts for all time?

    I know boys/men are naturally attracted to female bodies and this can be tough, but I also know training and culture have greatly to do with it; Latin Americans may see sensuality everywhere, but many Europeans don't. I heard of one British director who wished to make an artistic film with a lot of non-sexual nudity, but feared America's reaction to it because we tend to see nudity in films as always a prelude to either sex or violence. The Swedes, too, I hear only see nudity as sexual in certain circumstances; many cultures aren't as hung up as we are. Male actors describe sex/romance scenes as clinical and not romantic at all, and I think if all artists (or directors of films for that matter) were aroused by nudity, it would be far more obvious. If men can train themselves in acting, directing, and the OB/GYN field (which involves touching female chests respectively of course, but with bare hands-yech) without becoming roused, they can do this in art. Not every man can, I know. And if they can't, they better stay out of that field.

  40. Mrs. Webfoot says:

    Jennifer:
    As I've said before, men are perfectly capable of training themselves to see a woman's body as more than something sexual; if they don't bother trying, like a great deal of the artists I pointed out, that's their problem. >>>>

    Why can't girls and women train themselves to dress and act modestly, especially Christian women? That used to be part of a girl's training.

    That shouldn't offend us.

    Men like to see women naked – and that is universal, not just here in the United States. Yes, Christian men have to train themselves to be responsible, but what if Christian women think that they can dress as they please and men just have to put up with it?

    Why wouldn't Christian women want to help their brothers in their struggles?

    As far as artists go, they are not nor never have been known to have moral purity. They are not the best example to use, IMO. They tend to support the premise that men are arroused by seeing women in the nude. Artists want others to experience their works, including getting turned on by the naked human body if they paint nuces. It is part of the "art."

    Soft porn that is artistic, or hard porn that is considered to be vulgar bring about the desired reaction in the people who experience it. After all, art is meant to be experienced, not just observed. "It's okay to be sexually arroused" is part of the message being communicated through such nude art.

    You know that, don't you, Jennifer?

  41. Deborah says:

    I think that there are two sides to this coin.
    Raging hormones are part of being a teenager. A woman in a potato sack could arouse a young man at this stage in their lives.
    But as they mature they hopefully learn some self-control.
    While I believe in dressing modestly, and I don't mean dresses only, men and womenboth have to take responsibility in this area. I would love to see more modesty in our day and age, but it isn't going to happen, in the secular world anyway. We were not promised that the world would get better and better. In fact it was quite the opposite.
    I feel for men these days. They are visually stimulated and even if they don't watch television, all they have to do is step out the door and they are going to see "skin".
    They need self-control and we need to help them by not adding to the problem, so to speak.

  42. Stacy McDonald says:

    Jennifer,

    A couple of things:

    The Song of Solomon can hardly be compared to viewing the naked body of another person who is not your spouse.

    The man I was referring to didn't "hide" his urges; he recognized them, and was honest about it. Please take this in the gentle way it is intended: I can't imagine that someone your age would know the hearts and minds of men so well that you would insist most men are not sexually stimulated by a photo or a video of a beautiful, naked woman.

    Like I said in an earlier comment, we are not talking about a doctor/patient relationship. That is very different. It's not like a doctor is sitting there being entertained while a young, shapely model disrobes in front of him, or “frolics” around the room (like the naked faeries or nymphs in the movie you mentioned). He's looking at specific body parts, in a medical setting, with a medical mindset, with an assistant beside him. Very different.

    I do think you would do well to listen to the wisdom of older women who have been around longer. We have husbands and sons, and most of us are twice your age. Chelsey had some very good points. We have given you Scripture that proves that God says public nudity is shameful (and movies portraying nudity are the same thing).

    If you'd like to think that all of our husbands, sons, brothers in Christ, and most of the men who participated in the Rebulation survey are simply a bizarre minority, then that is your prerogative. I assure you they are not perverts; they are simply honest. What you choose to do with this information is between you and God.

    But before you get married, and before you have a child of your own one day, I pray you become a little more teachable in this department, and a lot less naive.

    By the way, modern Europe is hardly a paragon of virtue. Perversion is like that…it needs more and more to be stimulated.

    You said: “Male actors describe sex/romance scenes as clinical and not romantic at all, and I think if all artists (or directors of films for that matter) were aroused by nudity, it would be far more obvious… If men can train themselves in acting [and] directing, without becoming roused, they can do this in art…”

    Is that why actors and directors are so well known for their marital fidelity and chaste behavior? I see; it’s in their training. May my husband and sons never be so trained.

  43. Jennifer says:

    I speak only of the men I know Stacy, and the Song of Solomon is a valid point because it speaks of a sacred union and can easily cause stirrings of lust. I never insisted anything about most men; I said many men can train themselves to refrain from seeing nudity as constantly sexual. And no indeed, medical settings are not the same; in those cases, men actually touch female parts, and touching usually causes more stimulation than seeing. If men can do this with a professional mindset, there's no reason whatsoever why they can't have a professional mindset about nudity in other areas of work. Your words about Europeans are unfair and rather widely categorized, nor do they negate my point; if anything, the fact that "wicked" Europeans can look at nudity without sexual hang-ups should prove that Christian men should be able to as well. I don't appreciate the stereotypes about actors or directors either; you could see my meaning about their training very clearly, and it had nothing to do with the behavior you described. Furthermore, I could just as easily use the many cases of male doctor patient molestation to challenge anyone who thinks males are unsafe in THAT profession. I addressed this and other matters in my reply to Webfoot.

    My youth has nothing to do with my knowledge of these matters; I know several men, have seen boys in action, have been propositioned myself, have studied God's Word and the fact that my womb hasn't produced a male child doesn't change any of this. If I have come to a conclusion through much reflection, personal examination and deduction of the facts, including observations of people around me, there is no need for me to regard myself as a lump of clay to be formed by older women. Yes, I love learning and am still learning; I also love hearing the viewpoints here, but I still disagree with some and find them to be incorrect about the men I know and how I myself see art. I know my own heart and am not afraid of my choices. Plus, as I said, it's a remarkably simple matter: if women or men don't like nude art, stay away from it, but do not judge those who collect it or make it.

    "The man I was referring to didn't "hide" his urges"

    He must have in front of his models.

    "I assure you they are not perverts"

    You can't possibly know this about all of them. Many frigid conservatives see sexual evil everywhere else instead of the real problem inside them.

    "I pray you become a little more teachable in this department, and a lot less naive."

    When you see men pant over magazines and say filthy things to you online because you stand against porn, or become aroused with you when you're not even in their sight, naivete tends to leave fast. And to think, the fools who attack me for standing against porn think I'm some stodgy conservative! Very few people who speak with me online know what I'm really like.

    "The Song of Solomon can hardly be compared to viewing the naked body of another person who is not your spouse."

    But you are reading about the sexual union of two people, neither of whom is your spouse, are you not?

  44. Stacy McDonald says:

    "By the way, modern Europe is hardly a paragon of virtue. Perversion is like that…it needs more and more to be stimulated."

    Somehow, the rest of this paragraph got left off when I posted it. It was supposed to continue with…

    They see so much nudity that what we think is sexually stimulating, they think is blase. My husband used to travel to Europe a lot when he was in the corporate world (before he went into ministry full time), and when he was there he always came back so grieved. He said Europe is what America will be in 10 years. They show blatant nudity on their billboards and the sensuality in the culture is much worse.

    It is the world's mindset to speak as though enlightened Europe is so beyond America with their "healthy" view of public nudity. Isn't that what the nudist camps say? After all, it's not sexual, they just want to be able to "express" themselves.

  45. Jennifer says:

    I don't agree with a great deal of Europe's ways, and England and France are in fact finally starting to complain loudly about the increase of Arabs. The world's greatest artists have come mostly from that continent, however, and the human form has been included in their work for centuries. When it comes to adults and art, I think they have a better grasp on things, if not in all other matters.

  46. Anonymous says:

    Mrs. McDonald, if you please, can you make my comment anonymous, thank you.

    I agree with the previous anonymous poster!

    Jennifer: I have watched the Emma Thompson version of Much Ado About Nothing and I need to assure you, I, even as a female, was aroused during the scene you referred to. Moreover, when I watched Becoming Jane and the boys jump into the creek naked, which we don't completely see, we are watching the women's reactions since they are watching, that too, aroused me. See, I am a married woman and I struggle with this issue, A LOT! I also have a hard time averting my eyes in the store when I see a woman immodestly dressed, in fact, my eyes are drawn to her figure and I compare myself constantly.

    My husband was not pure when we got married and our lifestyle allowed us to watch these "harmless nude scenes" that you spoke about. In my humanities class in college, I was able to view naked art work especially statues, my stepfather (a "Christian" man!) had a picture hanging in his bedroom that had a mostly naked woman in it (we later found out that he struggled with porn), and I was introduced at the tender age of 16 to a book with virtually pornographic scenes in it, which though they are not necessarily visual are vivid enough to do plenty of damage. And damage was done. I wish whole-heartedly that I had guarded those things precious to me because now I can't get them back, but I can create them for my son and daughter. I can and will teach them about modesty and decorum but I want to emphasize, its not just the men who struggle here. Seeing an immodest (especially an attractive one) woman is something women need to guard themselves from as well!

    My question is: what's the point in seeing even a little "artistic" nudity? Sure, any one of those things that I experienced might not have been terribly damaging, especially occurring in isolation and with parental guidance, but somehow I managed to gain this sexual appetite that takes but never gives. I struggle with watching movies that have nudity in them, artistic or explicit. I am embarrassed to say that I enjoy them!!!

    My mom asked me a question a long time ago that I think brings the point home for me: which cigarette causes the cancer? You might be just fine smoking one cigarette, and you might even be fine with 200, but you might not. And once you start, with just one cigarette a day, even the "good ones" eventually, you might realize that you can't stop. You will never know if that was the last "safe" smoke you'll have. The ONLY way that you can prevent smoking-related lung cancer is to NEVER SMOKE!

    It is the same with nudity and sex, is it not? Which viewing is going to be toxic and damaging to the marriage? The first one? The artistic ones? What about all of the artistic ones? Where you do draw the line? Is the imagery in the movie Titanic considered "artistic?" Why not err on the side of caution and not tempt someone or yourself? So you won't ever be able to see Michaelangelo's David, is that really a huge loss? Perhaps viewing it would hurt your future husband's pride and he would be hurt by it, is it still worth it, for the sake of "art"?

    Again, Mrs. McDonald, can you please make my comment anonymous as it is very sensitive?

  47. Jennifer says:

    I'm very sorry for your struggle, anon.

    "My question is: what's the point in seeing even a little "artistic" nudity?"

    Because it's beautiful. It gives me a similar feeling to watching "Planet Earth", one of creation and peace, Divine Design.

    "Where you do draw the line?"

    Very clearly. Having seen much nude art and some sick images unexpectedly online, the difference is jarring.

    "any one of those things that I experienced might not have been terribly damaging, especially occurring in isolation and with parental guidance, but somehow I managed to gain this sexual appetite that takes but never gives"

    It is because you were exposed to soft porn at a young age, even given a bad example from a trusted adult. I am so sorry. I was protected as a child and only began exploring art when I was an adult and had spent years forming my sexual and Christian identity. This is simply not a weakness for me; I don't say this with pride or prejudice for anyone else, it just is. I've monitored myself carefully and, while I've made mistakes, I can tell when I'm uncomfortable and the vibe isn't right. I've seen both films you mentioned and was not bothered, and I'm no dainty figure myself. I model and monitor my tastes based on my strengths and weaknesses, not others'.

  48. Stam House says:

    I know that this post have a lot of comment and some debate on it. I do not want to be pointing the finger at anybody but only share my opinion.

    I have notice that sex is more and more present in our life, from adds to movies to the girls next door "flaunting her stuff" it's everywhere!

    Because it's everywhere does it make it ok?

    One point that was brought up was about being desensitize. Training our mind to not be arouse by nudity.

    Well that is a fine line, would you not be happy that your husband be arouse by your body that God has created for him, for his pleasure.

    And I'm sure that every new bride wants to think on their wedding night is "I'm just another piece of meat, lets just get it over with"!!!

    God as created us sexual being, trough intimacy we can have a glimpse of Him. The marriage bed help us to know Him better. It's establish to be enjoyed, cherish, and protected.

    The way He created men is to be arouse by what he sees, not a bad thing at all. It's a blessing, but since we are fallen creature men eyes are no longer sanctified.

    By keeping our eyes, minds, and taught pure we can't only them take the full blessing of sex within marriage.

    The series "peasant princess" from Pastor Mark Driscoll about song of song very clear on the subject or pornographie.

    "Song of Solomon 2:15
    Catch for us the foxes, the little foxes that ruin the vineyards, our vineyards that are in bloom."

    Pastor Driscoll talk about the little foxes and pornography would be one of them, so extra marital sex, sex before marriage, frigidity etc…

    I have to be blunt here, porn in any shape or from, as innocent as picture is a stumbling block. And men are affected by it and it WILL and does affect marriages.

    No women like to be compared, maybe I'm selfish but I want my husband eyes to only see ME, is mind to be full of images of ME, and his body to only touch ME.

    If a husbands have sex with another women he is committing adultery but Jesus says that he who looks at another women and lust after her (and yes she could be fully dressed) has committed adultery in his heart!

    I don't want my husband to sin and I try to help him in any way that I can to keeps his eyes, mind and body pure. I would never encourage him to set his eyes on another body that is not mine and just hopes that he would not sin.

    I am not responsible for his actions and that he his accountable to God for his sin, but as his helpmate I should help him to grow close to God

    Sorry about the length of my rambling.

    May God reveal His truth trough His
    words.

    Renee

  49. Stacy McDonald says:

    Jennifer said: “Men can train themselves to refrain from seeing nudity as constantly sexual. And no indeed, medical settings are not the same; in those cases, men actually touch female parts, and touching usually causes more stimulation than seeing.”

    Jennifer, there may be men who are able to somehow deaden their God given sexual desires (and yes, they are God given, but need to be channeled properly) so that they are able to view a movie containing beautiful naked women without being aroused. But it would be unnatural.

    Watching nudity for entertainment and providing someone with medical services are two very different things. Medical treatment is far from sexual. I would hardly compare naked nymphs frolicking about and giving someone covered in a paper sheet a pelvic exam two very different activities. It seems ridiculous to even compare the two.

    Jennifer said: “My youth has nothing to do with my knowledge of these matters; I know several men, have seen boys in action, have been propositioned myself, have studied God's Word and the fact that my womb hasn't produced a male child doesn't change any of this…”

    None of these things lend any credence to your claim that it is morally safe for most healthy men to watch naked women in movies. If anything it seems to prove my point. If you know “boys in action” and have been propositioned, how would that encourage your position that men’s minds can be asexual when needed?

    And even if they make the claim, how do you know what is going on in their minds? And bearing a child wasn’t what I was referring to. Years of being a wife and mother and knowing a husband and son(s) intimately, as many here do, offers a certain wisdom that doesn’t compare to acquaintances a single young lady may have at school etc.

    Jennifer said, “Plus, as I said, it's a remarkably simple matter: if women or men don't like nude art, stay away from it, but do not judge those who collect it or make it.”

    We are not judging anyone, and we are not discussing art. We are talking about husbands viewing television and movies that contain video footage of adult women (they are not married to) without their clothes on.

    Tell me something. Let’s say you decided to start acting. Let’s say you won an award for your wonderful part in this movie. Now, would you invite your father, maybe your grandpa, and some of your other male (and female) friends over to watch this movie with you…if in the movie you are “frolicking about” with other naked women in a non-sexual setting? Do you think that would be ok? Or is it only ok if you don’t know the naked person.

    Jennifer said, “But you are reading about the sexual union of two people [Song of Solomon], neither of whom is your spouse, are you not?”

    Song of Solomon is beautiful poetry that speaks of God’s love for His Bride. Yes, it is done artistically, describing the beauty of the sexual union WITHOUT anything gratuitous. And it is not visual. We also read of rape, murder, dismemberment, men sleeping with prostitutes, and homosexual encounters. Yet, the Word of God does not read like a racy magazine. You cannot compare Song of Solomon to a movie designed to entertain people with images of naked women. I’m actually surprised you would try to do that.

    I don’t think we’re going to agree on this and I am thinking the conversation is close to becoming unfruitful.

    You believe that men should be able to “train themselves” [deaden their natural desires] to be able to enjoy movies with nudity in them and not be stirred to lust. (Though you admit some men may not be able to do this). I would be very, very interested to hear how you feel about that AFTER you are married one day. (And, yes, I realize you think you already know). But please wait and tell me then. For the sake of your future marriage, by then, I pray you have changed your mind.

  50. Jennifer says:

    "frolicking about and giving someone covered in a paper sheet a pelvic exam two very different activities"

    The upper body is uncovered and touched at one point, making it more personal if anything to me. Plus, certain lower parts are revealed even the husband may not usually see; that alone makes me feel sick, regardless of motive. The simple fact remains, though, that it's a situation which could have caused arousal (especially if men are so easily volatile) were there not professional training and a specific state of mind.

    "If you know “boys in action” and have been propositioned, how would that encourage your position that men’s minds can be asexual when needed?"

    Not all men are the same. My point is, I know their lusts and have felt them. I've also seen amazing art in different forms from men with vision deeper than flesh, and assuming they really lust over their subjects and are not really worthy of trust in this way would not be beneficial to anyone.

    "how do you know what is going on in their minds?"

    Regarding arousal? It's pretty visible.

    "Would you invite your father, maybe your grandpa, and some of your other male (and female) friends over to watch this movie with you"

    I wish you would stop using the terms "frolicking around", as though you're mocking the description I made earlier. I would never be able to do a nude pose or part in a film, but this doesn't mean I condemn it.

    "You cannot compare Song of Solomon to a movie designed to entertain people with images of naked women"

    Here's the problem: who decides when it's gratitious? Song of Songs wasn't about God and His Church, it was about Solomon and one of his wives. Is all other sexual poetry gratitious and racy? Are sexual situations in stories the latter too? And films?

    "we are not discussing art."

    I pointed out films with nudity I saw as artistic and the subject then became whether or not men would be aroused even by non-sexual nudity, in art and elsewhere.

    "I would be very, very interested to hear how you feel about that AFTER you are married one day"

    Why would I have a problem with my husband NOT lusting after women in films? Should I fear this sort of control would impair his sexual performance with me? Are men's sexualities so two-dimensional?

    I will try to offer a final and hopefully thorough enough explanation for myself: I am not bothered by nudity in films or art. If others struggle with this, they are welcome to take whatever actions they need to for avoidance, including my husband, who does not need to share in my collection of books/films and whose struggles or lack thereof will be discussed before the marriage. I know all men struggle with some lust, and I also know not all of them are doomed to zero control over their bodies and minds; I will simply not claim this, as I see it as unfair to them. What works for some people does not work for others; I've had people tell me not to do several things they see as wrong, almost always because either they or someone they know has struggled with it: Don't celebrate Halloween, don't read Harry Potter, don't read the Red Tent, don't go to college, don't date, don't read Rick Warren, don't read books with romance because, I'm warned, all these things will lead me astray. I used to fear these things; I used to doubt myself, my own strengths, and pile others' weaknesses on top of myself as though I didn't have enough of my own. Now, I focus on my own strengths and weaknesses; I don't refrain from watching or reading something because someone else had a problem with it. Be sure, I know my own flaws; anger, irritation, fear and depression are some of my own, and some films/material ignite such feelings inside me and don't do so for others. Whoever my husband is, whatever he feels, has yet to be seen. I'll cross that bridge when we get to it.

  51. Kate says:

    Regardless whether artistic nudity in movies or art is beautiful and regardless whether or not men or even women can view it objectively isn't the point in my eyes. Here's a little hypothetical scenario, if you'll bear with me.

    Jesus Christ comes back to earth in human form and finds Artist Neil photographing a nude woman barely draped in silk for his latest gallery display. Do you HONESTLY think Jesus would be pleased?

    Your husband is watching a movie with nude women in it and Jesus happens to physically walk into the room just as pretty girl number 2 flashes her chest that defies gravity across the screen. Do you HONESTLY think your husband isn't going to be hugely embarrassed and Jesus isn't going to be pleased?

    YES, God created the naked human form and He created it beautiful. But after the fall He set limits on it. We should NOT view the naked human form outside of our marriage except in circumstances of caring for someone (ie. medical situations, giving birth, bathing a young child or handicapped or elderly person, etc).

    Also, yes, we, men and women, should learn to control ourselves should we HAPPEN to see a someone in an immodest state. However, we should not subject ourselves or be subjected to immodesty on a regular basis.

    A friend of mine's husband finds my long hair very sexually alluring if I wear it down. Now, some may say that it is his problem and I should be free to wear my hair down, but out of respect to God, my husband, my friend's husband, my friend and myself, I always wear it up when I'm around him.

    I posted a picture on facebook of me in a vintage 1950's strapless gown. It was lovely and rather "artistic." I wasn't posing in a sexual fashion and it wasn't meant sexually. I was just showing this lovely gown I bought for a steal at a garage sale. I removed the post after I wore it for my husband and he loved it (if you know what I mean) and I felt convicted that it was causing trouble for the men on my facebook circle.

    I don't care how "controlled" europeans are about the naked body and I've been to Europe twice and I hardly consider the average European self-controlled sexually, just as I hardly consider the average American self-controlled sexually. I don't care how many genius artists came out of Europe who painted nude forms (which many of these nude paintings were used as pornography in the day…I'm a historian and a friend of a historian who studies historical sexuality in all it's forms). What does the BIBLE say about all this?

    We cannot delude ourselves into the little traps Satan puts out…a little compromise here, a little worldly understanding there. Satan makes the paths to destruction very sweet and even innocent looking. We must constantly look to our loving Savior. We must constantly use the Bible as our default. We must constantly pray for wisdom and understanding.

    At 19 I thought I was all set and that I had a great understanding of things, including Christianity and my relationship with Christ. 10 years, a marriage and 6 pregnancies later I can't believe how naive I was and wish I had Godly Titus 2 ladies like Stacy to guide me and slap me across the face with the Bible once in a while.

    When I take care of my young children I hate to know that my son could struggle with the immodesty that surrounds us. I pray that my daughter never feels the need to expose her body to gain affection or attention, even in "artistic" ways. I pray that they both (I lost 3 babies to miscarriage and I have one on the way if you're confused about the math) enter their marriage beds pure.

  52. Deal Queen says:

    Ladies,
    There are now over fifty comments addressing the issue of pornography in visual media and how it impacts the family. As I quickly browse I am reminded of the following.

    Life is too precious to focus on the permissible; I do not want to play at the edges but instead I want to soak myself in the matters that are essential to my King.

    The chief end of man is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever (WMSC). How does television, pornographic or not help in meeting my chief end?

    99% of American homes have a TV set. On average it remains on for almost 7 hours per day. Pornography or not the bible says: In Ephesians 5:16 "make good use of your time because the days are evil". Is watching TV redeeming my time? Does it prepare me to proclaim the gospel or to glorify God?

    Finally; Philippians 4:8 tells us" Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable–if anything is excellent or praiseworthy–think about such things. If you sat with Jesus today is there a TV show that you would discuss with Him?

    Enjoying our christian liberty does not mean that we are to waste our lives and our time. We have a God-given thirst for joy. We watch television trying to quench this thirst with false imaginations and ungodly utopias. Quench your thirst with true joy and use your precious time in matters that matter eternally.

  53. Kate says:

    Ooops, sorry! I accidentally hit the dislike button on this post! There should be only 1 dislike. I LOVE this post.

  54. Andrea says:

    Grace and peace in the Name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,

    3. My blog is not a debate blog. It is a place for women to be encouraged and have their thinking challenged. You can disagree, of course, but don't expect a long, drawn out debate – I don't have time for it. I'm a busy mom and so are most of my readers. If you find yourself disagreeing with practically everything here, perhaps you should considering reading without commenting until you decide if you want to stay.

    I'm sorry, but I think Jennifer was given way too much "air time." I began reading this post with great interest in hearing the hearts of a variety of women. Then it sharply turned to a debate with someone whose heart is obviously not ready to receive the truth of God's word. And the intent of the post was lost IMO. Stacy, I do believe your intent was to mentor but you were not being heard..

    To all young women:

    The aged women likewise, that [they be] in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;

    That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,

    [To be] discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

    (Titus 2:3-5, KJV)

    Personally, I would say that we need to be wise even with our dealings with the medical establishment. Not all doctors are men of Godly character. I have personally witnessed some impropriety from "professionals" within obstetrics and gynecology. This is a delicate issue. I see most women now select female OB/Gyns (this is another topic for discussion) or choosing mid-wives (IMO a better choice whenever possible).

    May the Lord bless you all with truth in Him,

    Andrea

  55. Jennifer says:

    Andrea, I think your words are wise, but I'd prefer that you don't make such a personal judgement about my heart; I could just as easily make unkind presumptions about you or others. And for the record, I never wanted access "air time"; I would have been thrileld to have my words posted and left alone. When people address me with questions/arguments, I respond. In the future, please do me at least the courtesy of addressing me directly.

  56. Jennifer says:

    Kate, I posted a response to you. I hope it shows up, but if not, I didn't ignore you.

  57. Stacy McDonald says:

    Thank you for the reminder, Andrea. And you're right; there have been a number of rabbit trails here. I actually had to go back and read my own post to see what the point was. LOL

    Jennifer, I pray you read through the comments here again and truly pray for a teachable spirit. It's not just this post. It seems more often than not you come to challenge the message here. As a young women who should be learning from older women, you often come to "instruct." This has been especially evident in the last few posts.

    It is a tendency for young people to discount the words of those who are older and have had longer to experience various mistakes, and learn from them. In my youth, I was one to talk, and talk, and talk, and not listen. Once I stopped trying to argue and learned to quietly listen to those wiser than me, I began to truly learn.

    I remember when I was about 22, a wise, older woman telling me, "Stacy, you need to speak less and listen more." She was so right!

    "In the multitude of words sin is not lacking, but he who restrains his lips is wise." (Proverbs 10:19)

    "Let the wise hear and increase in learning, and the one who understands obtain guidance…" (Proverbs 1:5)

    "The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, but he who heeds counsel is wise." (Proverbs 12:15)

    I like you, Jennifer. That's why I've spent so much time trying to reason with you. But you seem to really like to argue. This is something I struggle with too.

    You don't have to agree with what has been set forth here, but you go beyond disagreeing. You spend many words defending your arguments based on your feelings and opinions, rather than on the Word of God. You have stated that you "know your own heart," but Scripture says that the heart is desperately wicked (Jer. 17:9). It also says that "he who trusts in his own heart is a fool…" (Prov. 28:26)

    We've given you numerous examples of real life men who have confessed to being stirred by female nakedness. That alone should be enough. I have yet to have one single man tell me that he can be entertained by female nudity without any sort of sexual stirring. Not one. And women have shared their weaknesses too.

    We've also given you examples from Scripture about public nudity being shameful (in movies or otherwise). On the other hand, there are no examples of public nakedness being neutral.

    I think we’ve reasoned together long enough. You've shared your feelings, now I ask that you go back to your Bible and study and pray about it. Don't base your beliefs on your feelings or how well you "know your heart." Just be aware that there are honest men (and women) in your midst who struggle with this. And just because Hollywood offers it to us and labels it artistic, doesn’t mean we should watch it. Nor does it mean it’s good for society—the society we’re supposed to be impacting for Christ.

    If you'd like to discuss this further in private, you know my email address.

  58. Jane says:

    Thankfully, my husband doesn't watch much TV anymore. He is,however, an avid football fan, so every Sunday afternoon from Sept. until Superbowl the TV is tuned in. I used to watch with him a little bit until the commercials got so sexual and offensive. I'ts a great relief to me every year when football season is over (tomorrow, praise God).

    Love your blog, Stacy, and your book (Passionate Housewives).

  59. Deborah says:

    I can see where this conversation has become rather drawn out and served it's purpose, so if you choose not to publish this comment it will not bother me at all!
    The only thing I have to add is that I can hardly see how Michaelangelo's David can be compared to the some of the trash shown in the name of art these days.
    The Supreme court could not even come up with a definition for porn. You just know it if you see it.

  60. Stacy McDonald says:

    Kate, I tried to contact you, so that you would receive Jennifer's response privately. Please email me and I'll make sure you receive her response.

  61. Stacy McDonald says:

    Jennifer has chosen to take a permanent break from the topic of nudity. If you want to address her, please do so privately.

  62. Librarian09 says:

    I'm 24 and I have seen and experienced more of life then many of you have ever experienced. My family is full of strife, tension, anger, lies, betrayals and unChristianlike behavior even though both of my parents did things the "right" way. I am a Christian, love Jesus and the Truth, but do not try to patronize me or women my age about our "naiveté." You have no idea what our lives are like, what our journey is like, or even if we have a shred of naivete. I'm sorry, but I would consider myself far less naive then a bunch of older women who gather together to have "teas," "dress-ups parties," and discuss the importance of floral arrangement or the proper length of a skirt. I've been working a job, since I was seventeen, my father was addicted to pain killers/bankrupted our family/lost our family home/emotionally abuses my mother who works seven days a week JUST so we can keep food, clothing and she still goes to church on Sundays and Wednesdays. She also continually points me to God and His Truth without patronizing me and my life.

    If you all are so gung-ho about training young women in the faith, maybe you should look at the example Christ gave and actually teach what He taught. Not some tidy little check-list and formulas you or your husband have created.

    How do you ever HOPE to reach out to younger women like me, if you never stop acting like you have it all figured out and treating us with patronizing condescension. Many of us "younger" women are years older then many of you. Don't act like you know everything…because you know what, you don't.

  63. mamma bear says:

    Librarian- I have prayed for you. Please do not think I am picking on you. There is nothing personal in what I have to say. But, your comment begs to be responded to, so here goes: You are so young to be so bitter! I cannot even find the comment(s) that upset you so much. You say you are a Christian (that means born-again). If that is so, turn to Christ for comfort! These ladies' blogs can give encouragement and advice, but they cannot bring peace or joy! Those invaluable gifts come from a relationship with Christ alone.
    I am very new to this blog, but I was drawn here because I do NOT see "tea-parties" and "flower arranging." Maybe I just haven't found that stuff yet. :) There is spiritual help here for those who want it! This blog does teach God's Word, which is exactly what Christ taught. There is also a great deal of spiritual warfare here. Please recognize that!
    BTW, I was saved out of wickedness at age 28. I am not naive.
    One more time, my comments are not a personal attack on you, but hopefully, more of an encouragement for you to deal with your bitterness in a Scriptural manner.
    God bless you.

  64. Jennifer says:

    Librarian, praise God for your strength to overcome such a past! Blessings on your continued journey.

  65. Stacy McDonald says:

    Hi Librarian,

    I am sorry to hear you have had such struggles. In some ways, I can relate. By 22, I had experienced more pain, and seen more heartache than many people twice my age.

    However, experiencing sin doesn't make one wise, as I'm sure you'd agree. Yes, I learned a lot through my school of hard knocks, but it was through godly women in my life that the Lord taught me wisdom, and how to apply those lessons without destroying myself and those around me with bitterness.

    Not sure where the tea party/place setting comment came from. Perhaps from the post about the ladies retreat we had last year? That was one post out of hundreds – and I assure we neither played dress up nor discussed hem lengths or floral arranging. :-)

    And, if your family was "full of strife, tension, anger, lies, and betrayals" I would disagree with you that they did everything "right." In fact, none of us do. I would encourage you to read the following link:

    http://yoursacredcalling.blogspot.com/2010/01/legalist-hunters-and-hypocrisy-that.html

    "While I agree that legalism is a dangerous problem in the Church, most of the complaints I hear of late have more to do with reactionism than they do true legalism. Entire blogs are set up “warning” other Christians how they may spot legalistic churches or groups, or even how to judge whether or not a friend is a legalist. Most of their warnings aren’t based on Scripture or reason; most of their complaints are based upon their personal testimonies or experiences from when they, themselves, were legalists.

    To me, that’s the most disturbing part. Since when are we called to superimpose our own past sins or judgmental attitudes on others? If you were a legalist at some point in your life, and thought that anyone who (insert extra-biblical teaching here) was sinning, then own your own sin; but, don’t get it in your head that all your brothers and sisters in Christ who seem to “look like you did” on the outside have the same sinful mindset on the inside!

    Another related issue is idolatry. We focus on someone we "think" has it all together and we follow them, seeking to live like they do. Rather than study for ourselves and stand firm in what we believe, we often blindly embrace someone else’s convictions. Then, since the convictions weren't our own to begin with, we’ll waver and eventually give up in despair; because really, we weren't truly obeying God; we were just going through the motions. The result is that we blame the one we've been blindly "following." We blame our idol for our idolatry.

    We must know what we believe and why. We must not follow anyone but Jesus. God is a jealous God and He wants our unrivaled worship, devotion, and love.

    Legalism is real. But if you are guilty of it, why not spend your time repenting, rather than reporting?"

    And perhaps read this:

    http://yoursacredcalling.blogspot.com/2010/01/legalism-yours-mine-and-ours.html

  66. Jane says:

    Librarian,

    I'm very sorry for the pain and heartbreak you have experienced. But to assume that you are alone in experiencing these things in your life is way off base. Don't be so quick to judge what I or others have lived through, no matter what our age.

    Mama bear said pretty much anything else I wanted to say.

  67. Leslie says:

    Experience DOES create wisdom, otherwise the women here wouldn't seem to believe in some sort of age supremacy.

    Librarian did not say she was alone, nor did she mention legalism, and why the assumption that she's not testifying or repenting?? She has a blog of her own. I don't blame her for seeing many blogs like this one as naive; Stacy's had a tough past, but so many similar blogs have nothing but floral decorations, cozy words, and little resemblance to reality. It would be nice if dissenters were merely listened to sometimes instead of contradicted; no matter what, we always end up hearing what the older women know.

  68. hisgardenofpleasure says:

    Frankly, I prefer my man to be aroused sexually, whether that is by movies, TV, women walking down the street, etc. It makes him want to get home to me faster and ENJOY ME, his bride. :) In fact, we even enjoy watching such movies TOGETHER! I LOVE when we are aroused sexually, and enjoy the PURE intimacy WITH EACH OTHER that God created us for!

    I feel sorry for the women here who constantly have to worry about their husband’s unfaithfulness. I’ve been extremely blessed to have a man who has seen “the other side of the tracks” sexually (has slept with more than a couple of women years before he met me), and knows it to be empty and debilitating. Our love today is deeper than most other couples I know, because we are COMPLETELY committed to each other. Only a man who secretly wishes his wife were different (or someone else completely) looks longingly at another. Sadly, however, it appears that most women here see their husband’s eyes on another woman and immediately question his fidelity. Maybe you have good reason to think your husband might leave you for another (physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, or otherwise)! If so, I pray for you! At least most of your husbands are honest with you about their wish that you were as pretty as the women they fantasize about or look at on the internet or movies, it would seem. I have been EXTREMELY blessed with a man who can see other beautiful women, and STILL CHOOSE ME (physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, and/or otherwise), every time. And not only to still choose me, but to want me EVEN MORE!

  69. Stacy McDonald says:

    Dear “hisgarden”,

    I didn’t post your whole comment because it seemed you were completely unaware of how offensive most of it was. I am stunned. You are either totally naive to the ways of men (how old are you?), or you aren’t for real. If you truly believe that your marriage is so far above all other marriages, and that your husband is beyond temptation because of his great and profound love for you, then I would suggest you be careful of arrogance and pride – and be more concerned for your sisters who may be suffering (and perhaps seeing life in a more realistic light).

    Most husbands would admit that watching a couple having sex in a movie, or watching a scantily clad woman prance before him on the television screen would tempt him to lust (and not after you). You may be the one he turns to for physical satisfaction after being aroused by another woman, but how can you think that is healthy and good? Yuck.

  70. Miranda says:

    I’m so glad I came across this website! Ive been searching and couldn’t find anything or anyone that has felt the same way about this as I do. I’ve always felt that I was crazy and that I needed to get over the way I feel. I have a really hard time dealing with my boyfriend watching movies and tv with nude or even nearly nude women in them. He, as well as many other people I know, tells me and makes me feel crazy. I hide the way I feel to most people because I feel so abnormal. Sometimes I think I’ll never be happy or find anyone who is like me. Thank you for giving me hope that I’m not alone with these thoughts and feelings

  71. Miranda says:

    Also…I’m not married…as I said earlier. I want to be, but I just cant find anyone who feels the same on these views as I do. So….to all of you women above ….Thank God everyday! There sure aren’t many men like yours!

  72. Miranda says:

    BTW….I had to use my son’s email…mine isn’t working for some reason??

Leave a Reply

Please note: Comment moderation is currently enabled so there will be a delay between when you post your comment and when it shows up. Patience is a virtue; there is no need to re-submit your comment.