May 16, 2008 by Stacy McDonald
Guilty Until Proven Innocent
One thing I am noticing: Virtually everyone seems to agree on the following things regarding the FLDS:
1. Children who are indeed abused or molested should be protected.
2. FLDS is a cult.
3. Neither under aged girls NOR grown women should be forced into a marriage against their will.
4. It is a tragedy that mothers and children have been separated and traumatized – and continue to be.
5. Those who have broken the law should be punished.
6. The 22-year-old woman who impersonated a teen FLDS girl by calling in an anonymous plea for help should suffer some sort of consequence.
What we CAN’T seem to agree on is what to do about it. We can’t agree on:
1. Whether or not the government has overstepped its boundaries and violated the constitutional rights of American citizens.
2. Whether or not all of the children should continue to be kept from their parents without reasonable proof of an individual crime having been committed. (And what constitutes “reasonable” proof? Simply being a member of a cult is not instant “proof”.)
3. Whether or not 16 and 17-year-old mothers should be allowed the right of marriage and motherhood if they married with parental consent (and not under duress). And if the answer is “no,” then what of other 16 and 17-year-old wives and mothers OUTSIDE of the FLDS cult?
I’m wondering how many people who are in agreement with the government on this also believe that those who continue in this cult should be allowed to continue to have children. Do you think they should be sterilized? Should they have to give up every child they bear if they choose to live as FLDS? And should any family the government deems “cultish” or suspicious be open to state inspection or seizure of children? Isn’t this the logical conclusion to these recent actions?
Why are homosexual couples allowed to adopt children and FLDS parents (who have not been accused of any crime) have their children seized? See what happens when the state gets to decide what constitutes abuse and “cultish” behavior?
There are monogamous couples who are both “of age” whose children have been seized. What crime are they accused of? Why are their children being held as virtual prisoners of the state? I agree that the FLDS is a damnable cult; but I’m saying that as a Christian – not a state agency. I certainly don’t want the state to have the right to define what a cult is – or what constitutes “brainwashing” or “emotional abuse.”
There are plenty of secular folk who believe that Christianity itself is a cult! “How dare you teach your child that Christ is the only way to salvation!!!!?”
And it’s not just a matter of abuse needing to be proven (although there has certainly been plenty of time to do this), but it’s also a matter of accusing individuals of a crime – not entire religious groups, based on the alleged actions of SOME.AND – those who are accused (the men) were not the ones taken! The supposed victims are the ones who are suffering all the more!
Read how a monogamous couple (the mom is 22!) has been treated: FLDS Mom Speaks Out After Giving Birth (Each YouTube video ends and a new one begins. Be patient – there are several YouTube Interviews on this video reel.
And read about the latest: The “Individual Service Plan” that is supposed to enable FLDS families to find out what it will take to get their children back – CLICK HERE. Be sure to read the many articles at The Common Room that cover this topic. Deputy Headmistress is keeping up on this and has done a lot more research than I have. Be sure to read what she has to say!
And just so you know – if you want to go have a beer, your drivers license works just fine to prove your age; but a drivers license AND a birth certificate won’t work if you want to prove your age to CPS – at least not if your children are taken away because you’re accused of being too young to have them. Be sure and read this whole article at “Grits for Breakfast”:
“One mother said that she has a daughter in state custody who is 23, but who the state of Texas insists is 15 or 16 years old. She says her daughter has a birth certificate and a driver’s license, and that she herself submitted her own driver’s license and attested to her daughter’s age, but the state will not accept any of the identification as legitimate.
“What other kind of evidence can any person offer as to the age of an individual? Age is not something that DNA can establish.
“She’s right about that. If DNA can’t tell age, you won’t accept documentary evidence (like a Texas driver’s license) and your abuse case is premised on the idea that the women are lying so you can’t use their testimony, how can the state prove anything one way or another?
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42 Responses to “Guilty Until Proven Innocent”
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I don’t agree with how the government has handled this situation, but I don’t have any good idea of how else they could have approached it. Perhaps, as Stacy mentions, they should have apprehended the men and left the women and children on the ranch.
I wonder, though, how much of their decision to clear out the ranch had been influenced by the 1993 Brach Davidian disaster at Waco. The state perhaps feared that FLDS members, and their children, would meet a similar end if left to their own devices.
No, the state has not presented whatever evidence it has to the public. In an ongoing investigation, I’m not entirely sure investigators should be forthcoming to the media concerning their findings.
And the women themselves aren’t being entirely transparent, either. They wish for public support in their reunification efforts, and yet are hard-pressed to answer any questions posed them by the very people to whom they’ve appealed for help.
I think most of us agree that the state overstepped its bounds, but the question remains: in the face of allegations that abuse occurs on a regular basis within an isolated community, how should the government react?
Where I live, private registries are responsible for issuing drivers’ licenses and birth certificates. A couple of them have been shut down for selling fake licenses and other false documentation as a way of “aging up” a buyer or otherwise misleading authorities about the carrier’s vital stats.
I don’t know how it works in Texas, but if members of the FLDS used a single private registry, which was staffed by likeminded individuals, then it’s not unrealistic to expect that certain ID information has been doctored to skirt the law – especially since, as I understand it, home-birth is a common practice among community members.
The state would then be burdened with the arduous task of matching whatever records it has against the documents provided by FLDS members.
No, the “eyeball test” is not sufficient to determine a person’s age; but a woman of 23 should be expected to react in a way different from how an average 16-year-old would respond – even among the FLDS.
I should imagine there are also physiological differences between a teenager and an adult in her 20s, such as the eruption of wisdom teeth and the condition of the collar bone: http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=17755308
Surely, there must be a reason other than appearance for the state to doubt legal documents that are normally accepted as proof of age.
Thank you for having posted my previous comments.
Stacy,
Thank you for keeping us informed about this story. My heart goes out to these families, lost as they are, and I pray their children are quickly returned to them.
Thank you so much for your posts regarding the recent FLDS crisis. I am scared to death of what this could mean to all of us who the government deem “cultish”. I had a discussion on the phone with my mother last night and was shocked at how she agreed with what the state and the media has to say about all of this. My own Mother! Why can’t people realize that this is an attack on the freedom of religion in this country. I do not agree with the FLDS. But the government has gone too far! What will be next?
I agree with Alyzza that while I DON’T believe that the government handled this correctly, I am not 100 percent sure what would have been a ‘better’ way to do it.
I do agree that separating nursing infants from their mothers is barbaric. I wander though if this has not inadvertedly happened as a result of a broad application of a principle to separate children from their parents when their parents themselves are suspected of being involved in their abuse.
As we’ve often said, the government is not perfect. Let us hope that they will re-think some of their practices soon.
I think that it is standard practice to remove children from their parent’s custody when it is considered likely that
a. the parents will influence the children to cover up abuse that has been inlicted on them under parental authority, thus impeding investigation.
Obviously in the case of infants this would not apply and so I hope that authorities will re-think their stance on this one – soon.
b. that parents will use the opportunity of being with their children to remove their children from the site (broadly speaking) where the investigation is being conducted with an eye to continuing their abusive practices elsewhere.
Of course, this second case does still allow for parents and children to BE TOGETHER while in custody.
And it would seem that in all cases, supervised visits between parents and children should be possible without subjecting the children to possible danger.
Again, these are just my musings. I am not saying that my thoughts above are the correct way to have handled the situation either.
I think the whole situation is complicated.
Perhaps the best thing we could do is to pray that all will be resolved soon, the real abuse discovered, the innocent re-united with their families and MOST IMPORTANTLY that the Lord will use this time away from the compound as an opportunity to draw some of these people to Himself!
For those of you living in the US (I guess almost all the readers of this blog), I wander if there could possibly be any opportunities to minister to these
people. Would there be any way to get involved in offering them shelter, etc?
If so, it might be a fantastic opportunity to be a testimony of real Christian love.
One very worrying aspect of this situation is how to find a way protect the children while simul. demonstrating love.
Mary, I agree with your mother. Even if the government has gone too far, try considering their motives: have they done this before with a non-cultish group or anyone that they had no reason to believe was abusing minors? I really don’t understand the desire to defend these people; regardless of the State’s bad choices, we KNOW what these people are. Do we really want ALL those parents to have their children back?
And please, ladies: more than anything else, stop giving in to fear or spreading it. There is NO reason to believe that the government is acting out of an anti-Christian agenda or that normal Christians will be targeted. It amazes me how many women are wringing their hands about the end of the world coming or their own children being taken; it downright infuriates me how secular anti-government people are deliberately spreading this fear. One woman even labeled her article “They’re coming for your kids!”, practically screeching at normal Americans to start panicking about their children. Sure, the government’s coming: if you marry off your minor children, endorse polygamy, or close off your family from the rest of the world, including its legal practices. Other than that, I wouldn’t worry.
Alyzza, I am wondering if you have any evidence for believing there ‘must’ be a reason other than appearance for the state choosing not to accept certified birth certificates, driver’s licenses, and tax returns as identification? CPS has said that they determined ages two ways- they looked at them, or, when they started separating the children from the mothers, they said that any mothers under 18 could stay with their children. Suddenly at that moment, 25 females stepped up and said, ‘Okay, we’re minors, don’t separate us from our children.’
CPS also said on April 29th that they had only two currently pregnant teens in custody. Two women CPS said were teens have given birth. One is 18 and one is 22.
There has never been any history of the FLDS being violent.
And while you say the state isn’t presenting its evidence to the public, I wonder what you mean when you say the women themselves aren’t being entirely transparent. How do you know? What do you mean?
I have read the affadavits for the original and subsequent search warrants. I have read the Bishop’s List that CPS submitted as evidence of ‘rampant under aged marriage,’ and I have read the reporter’s summaries of the two day hearings, often typed as the witnesses were speaking.
Angie Voss said their homes were dangerous because they taught that a woman’s highest calling was to be a wife and mother, that they believed that men were the heads of their households, and that there was an underaged bride in each of 19 households on the ranch.
There weren’t just 19 households, it’s closer to over 30. There weren’t under-aged brides in each of them, either.She did not even interview each family.
There are four legal reasons the state of Texas can remove children from a home. Being polygamous isn’t one of them.
Neither is being a member of a cult.
Neither is having a member of your church who got married at 16 ten years ago (one of Angie’s examples of ‘rampant’ underaged marriage).
I think that the most pressing
question that emerges from the most recent post is:
When is the government allowed to intervene in the choices a parent makes for his/her children?
My thoughts on this centre on the Biblical principle that the state/government/authorities should be a protector of the innocent. And that we should have no reason to fear them if we do not practise evil.
It is really important to remember that at the time that this was penned the government was also not perfect. Not at all. And, to the best of my knowledge, it was NOT favourable to Christians. And yet those words, nevertheless… .
Not all children grow up in loving Christian homes and I assume that throughout the world, governments have to remove thousands of children from busive homes every year. Although abuse does undoubtedly occur within this system, it does not mean that the idea itself is flawed.
It would seem logical that the government should intervene only in cases where the parents are acting against the best interests of the child/ in other words, where the parents are behaving in an busive fashion. The motive behind this intervention should not be to prescribe lifestyle, but to protect the children.
Okay, so who decides what consitutes abuse and what doesn’t?
How about we stick to what the law/constitution describes as illegal in defining abuse?
Although this seems an easy and logical conclusion, in practice, I believe that the APPLICATION of specific laws can sometimes be problematic.
Although I don’t live in the US and of course there could be variations in different countries, I guess that at least most of the following would be universal:
- that children have a right to be adequately educated
- that children should not be required to participate in employment at the expense of their education
- that children below a certain age, should not be allowed to work at all.
- that children should not be pressurized into relationships/marriage, even as they approach adulthood
- that children below a certain age should not be allowed to engage in sexual activity at all
- that children should not be permitted to marry while they are still classified as children
- that children should be protected from engagement in illegal practices (such as, for example, polygamy, if it is indeed deemed illegal by the state)
- that children should have access to information and resources outside the family circle (and church circle) that would enable them to report and escape from abuse it it WAS occurring.
If these principles are in place, I cannot imagine that the government would chose to prosecute people because of the way they dress, their decision not to watch TV (personally, I had given up watching TV for several years PRIOR to my conversion and no-one at all had anything much to say about it!), or because their vegetables are organic or otherwise.
I don’t agree one bit with what the Texas authorities have done. I thin it’s a crime against humanity and cultural/religious genocide. If the men were suspected of abusing the girls then the men should have been removed, not the children. And how come there have been no charges made? Why did the authorities go into the houses without search warrents?? Why are the children still being held captive after the phone call that set this whole thing off was shown to be a hoax? What’s UP with all of this?!
I see it as religious persecution plain and simple. Just take a look at what the judge said in regards to why the kids can’t be returned: The girls are raised to believe they are to become wives and mothers and the families share a common belief system. Ok, so, who’s church is next on the raid list?? I mean, don’t we share common beliefs in our churches? Don’t many of us believe that the god-given roll of girls is to grow up and marry and have kids?
And what about the Amish and the Mennonites and the Catholic monasteries and convents?? Are they next? What about the “hippies” who are living off of the grid and as far from rampant consumerism as possible? California is attacking home-schoolers and it just passed a law stating that no Christian minister can refuse to marry gay couples! Like it or not, a very facist curtain is closing in on us Christians right under our noses and what are we doing about it? It all starts with control of the churches… Pastors can’t tell their congregations who to vote for, they can’t preach against homosexuality, they can’t refuse to marry homosexuals, the Bible is being labeled “hate speech”… what will the government dictate next? How did it ever get *this* far in the United States of America in the first place??
How much longer before those of us who don’t have TVs, bake our own bread, sew our own clothes, raise our own food and wear long skirts will end up in the spotlight as “cultists” that must be stopped and “brainwashed” women that must be rescued? I might sound hysterical but these are honest questions! Most of what I’ve read about the FLDS women is hyper-focused on the style of their dresses and their hair and the fact that they marry young and have babies ~ and how these things are bad and the women must be saved from their oppressed brainwashed lifestyle. There is not much focus on their humanity, their American citizenship, their personal *choice* to live such a lifestyle…
It’s easy to see the FLDS as “Others,” as “cultists” and therefore it’s “no surprise” that the Texas authorities went after them… but how much longer before that label is applied to more and more of us who refuse to live in the mainstream pop culture? Modesty and chastity are making a wonderful comeback. So is the ancient role of the stay-at-home wife and mother. Homeschooling is on the rise and more and more daughters are staying home to prepare for *marriage* and *child bearing* rather then persuing careers. We women are leaving the consumerist and feminist pop culture in droves and that’s going to become just as threatening as any FLDS “compound” ever has been! (It already *is* threatening…)
Sure, I sound hysterical and drama-queenish but guess what? Every time I go into public I am publically humiliated and derided for the way I dress. Right out loud, complete with finger-pointing and shouted insults while others watch and laugh! This tells me that agressiveness towards Christians is becoming totally culturally acceptable. That’s the first set of stones that paves the way to government persecution…
Personally, I don’t think the FLDS women need to be more transparent. We live in a tell-all society and that’s not necessarily a good or godly thing. We are so used to people just blabbing their heads off about everything when in the media spotlight and so it’s easy to feel that the FLDS women are playing some kind of sly hide-and-seek game. We have no idea how much information they are actually telling people in *private* opposed to telling everything in public via the media. They have every right to privacy and we don’t have any right to demand to be told anything at all. We are just the public that is evesdropping via the media.
As for the FLDS women not giving informaton to the authorities, I think the authorities are doing everything they can to keep these kids captive under the guise of “non-cooperation” from the FLDS while they reject legitimate documentation like birth certificates, tax papers and drivers licenses. That’s downright scary because if they can do this to the FLDS they can do it to us!! “Sorry, you long-skirted stay-at-home weirdo, but we are taking your kids away because you are abusing them with your religion! We are going to claim you were underage when you had these kids!”
Even though FLDS is not Christian this situation has thrown open Pandora’s Box against us Christians just the same… I can’t bring myself to think of it as an isolated incident. It’s going to spread like ripples in a pond and God only knows where it’ll strike next! Pardon me for my concern but I honestly don’t think that I’m being dramatic. I’ve lived in countries where certain religious groups had no rights or protection under the government and it’s not pretty.
Thanks for reading my comment – if you made it this far without falling asleep. I’m not a sucinct individual! GOD BLESS and have a lovely day!
To answer the questions on the areas that we seem to disagree on:
1. I don’t recall reading that anyone here wholeheartedly supports the way the government handled the case.
2. I don’t think that anyone should be denied the right to marriage and motherhood, if they are above the legally consenting age (which would obviously vary depending on where you live).
AS LONG AS sufficient care is taken to ensure that force/coersion or rape is not being implemented.
- There is a difference between parental consent and parental coercion (excuse my spelling, English is not my first language!)
- I’m also wandering what role mind control might play in the issue of duress.
As to whether or not people should be allowed to keep their children or not, I wouls say emphatically that all parents should be allowed to keep their children _ FLDS or not – unless they are being abusive or acting against the best interests of the child. And there ARE laws to determine what behviour is acceptable or not. There are also laws – I assume – governing how exactly investigations should be conductd.
I don’t believe in ANY form of eugenics. I believe it is unethical to sterilize people forcefully. I can’t imagine that anyone here would think otherwise? Has anyone written something to lead you to that conclusion?
Personally, I think it is problematic to even consider forceful sterilization for any group of people, NO MATTER HOW STRONGLY I DISAGREE WITH THEIR LIFESTYLE.
I guess this is the dominant view in society today. Isn’t this why no one would consider sterilizing criminals, drug addicts etc. But having said that, there would be some groups that I would always like to watch closely, regarding how thet interact with their children. So that if abuse was indeed taking place, I (the hypothetical ‘I’) could intervene – really fast!
I hope this answers your question on how those of us who do not absolutely and thoroughly condemn all action taken by the government feel concerning policies of eugenics.
I was just wandering under which circumstances specifically you believe that it is acceptable for the state to intervene in the choices parents make on behalf of their children.
Thank you for your thoughts on this. I agree with you. I have been thinking of all the under age mothers in my area who get to take their children to child care on high school campus’. If Texas continues with this I think it is setting a precedent and that some one should force them to follow through with it on all people.
That was a good comment coffee catholic. I don’t think you sound hysterical. The hostility that we see the media and government carefully constructing against those who claim to be Christian’s and choose to live outside the flow of this degraded culture is similiar to the way the nazi’s drew a net of cultural hatred around the Jews prior to WW II.
As to having nothing to fear if we live a righteous life, Yahshua (Jesus) says that we will be persecuted for the sake of righteousness. Yes ladies, these times may come, but for the sake of our children, I feel that we should stand up and speak out against our government’s highly illegal activities.
Here is a likely unpopular thing I would like to point out to those who believe that the government may have had some justification in removing children because they were purportedly married at the ages of 15 or 16 or because of polygamy.
In the Lord’s law, there is no commandment against polygamy. There is no though shalt not commit polygamy. I would not want to be involved in a polygamist relationship myself, but this is an option that the Lord permits. Yes, I know He says that one man shall marry one woman, but He never chastises anyone, anywhere in the word for marrying more than one, only says the man must be able to support any wives he takes.
If they are not breaking the law of God, then why should any Christian feel that they deserved to have their children removed from their homes?
I, too, have been praying for the families from that ranch. When the government steps in and wholesale removes children from their families based on religion, it’s SCARY. There has been a lot of talk about how parents are in control unless they are being abusive or acting against the best interests of the child.
Who decides the “best interests of the child”? I would like to think I do, when we are talking about my child. But many people believe the government should set the standards. In its best form, government is “group think”, setting rules based on majority opinion. At its worst, the government is a pagan monster out to make sure turn all its citizens into pagens.
That is why this raid worries me. I homeschool because God has called me to raise up my children for him. I do not agree with all the lifestyle choices of the FLDS members, but in a free country, they may raise their children freely.
When do parents abuse their kids? The ten commandments provide a clear boundary… killing, stealing, acting against their neighbors. I have seen no evidence of criminal activity. IF any of the men took young girls as their wives, then arrest the men!!
Already, I have heard other stories of children removed from their parents because the parent refused a medical procedure recommended by a doctor. Again, this an instance of someone outside the family who knows better than the parent what is best for the child.
Obvious, physical, abuse demands our attention but does it demand the attention of the government?The line is hard to set. If we believe the government should watch out for the interests of the individual, then it will be set very differently than if we believed the government is to insure the general peace.
Tough questions for us all….
In cleaning our children’s bedroom, if we come across something that indicates that our children are involved in some wrong doing, do we turn a blind eye to this? No, we would interviene, from love and concern.
Let’s say, that the phone call made on the FLDS group was a hoax. What the police found…should that be ignored? What about the fraud on the TX wefare system? What about the police who are still being lied to concerning the ages of the girls at the time of their “marriages”? What about the doctor who delivered these babies and signed the birth certificates, and knew what was going on in this community all along? Are we forgetting that laws have been broken?
There seems to be over concern about our rights being violated. I do not think the government is too worried about my plain dress, long hair, or bread made from scratch. I feel that many are overlooking the rights of these children, to grow up with out fear of being given away to older men without their permission.
The mothers of these precious children need to make a choice. They need to decide to remain living within this cult, or leave, with their children, begin a new life…in freedom. The mothers have decided to choose their way of life over their children’s safety. (That I do not understand. )
There are so many layers to this situation.
1.The leaaders who have “cooked up” a money making scheme to build their fortress,
2.Have multiple children, outside of legal marriage, claim to be single mothers, get welfare for the children and single mothers,
3. Convince the men and women that they are doing God’s work by taking multiple wives and intermarrying first cousins. We need to remember that laws have been broken!!
I think this whole thing has gone poorly, and it’s still unclear whether there has been abuse. However, I don’t think even parental consent should ever be a reason for a 16 or 17-year-old to be married. That’s far too young. No minors should be permitted to get married under any circumstances. It’s too young to make a rational, lifelong decision. Honestly, so are about 18-20, but that’s legal adulthood, so there’s not much to do about that.
I don’t think I agree, at least entirely, with your #2, “FLDS is a cult,” at least unless you consider the religion founded by Joseph Smith in America, in all its forms, mainstream and fundamentalist, a cult. Personally I consider it a religion, albeit one in which I do not believe.
It really depends on your definition. My mother, for example, who was a devout southern baptist, until her death considered mainstream Mormonism a dangerous “cult,” and all the criticisms she had were doctrinally identical to FLDS. My view was that she was demonizing perfectly good people who I knew and respected, and that their religion wasn’t any crazier, at least on paper, than ours! Jesus Christ, after all, was executed by secular authorities essentially for being the leader of a cult (“King of the Jews,” etc.). Every religion sounds like crazed gobbledygook to non-believers when the details are explained (e.g., “then on Sunday we symbolically eat Christ’s body and drink his blood.”)
To alyzza, here’s one suggestion for how they could have approached it: When they found out the complaint was a hoax, they could have called off the dogs. Instead they seized every child in sight, regardless of who is the parent. In Utah and Arizona they’re making inroads by prosecuting individual abuse cases but also trying to better integrate polygamists who aren’t abusers into mainstream society. I think that’s a smarter approach from the perspective of protecting the kids.
Stacy,
This is a very complicated and sensitive situation. We can only pray that God’s will be done. It breaks my heart to think of what the children are going thru — but it also breaks my heart that children are being raised in this mind controlling cult. Both scenarios are not good or healthy for the children. I have know enough women who were raised in polygamist groups to know that it is *not* a healthy environment to grow up in. It is not what people think it is or what they are portraying themselves to be like on the news.
I would have thought a better situation would have been to arrest the men, not take the children into custody. If the men would have been removed the cult would have been broken up.
The men continue to abuse and dominate the women that are left behind and the cycle will continue.
I know that the FLDS are on TV and they appear to be very sincere, but let me tell you it is not what you think or what the public is seeing. The women and children do live in a very abusive situation. The horror stories do come out when the members break free of the cult.
This is a cult that does not allow one to marry for love but it they believe in arranged marriages.
I think everyone would be wise to read up on the FLDS and other groups like these and find out more about what really goes on behind close doors.
Ir’a a very complicated issue for sure.
Blessings,
Gloria
former LDS
@ Headmistress
1) On proof of age: I suggested several potential reasons for why the state may not accept legal documentation as proof of age. *I have no evidence for any of these*, since the state has not provided any. That said, any claim there is no way to determine age BUT legal documentation or the “eyeball test” is false, as I demonstrated in my previous post.
2) On violence in the FLDS: Authorities seized what they initially identified as a “cyanide poisoning document.” Members of the FLDS claim it was part of a first aid kit, which it very well might have been; but to an unschooled police officer rifling through a stack of documents, it must have looked ominous – serious enough that it was specifically listed as seized evidence.
So although the FLDS doesn’t have a history of violence, authorities might have feared future violence. It has certainly happened before during other raids.
3) On transparency: Women from the FLDS community have appeared on Larry King Live and other programs. All of them – I’ve heard not one exception – have played coy, pausing after hard-hitting questions only to offer evasive answers. I’d like to add, here, that the men are just as guilty of it.
I’ll take the path of least resistance and transcribe a small portion of the very MSNBC ‘Today Show’ interview that Stacy posted here:
ANCHOR: “Another question, from Dean, is, ‘Every time someone from your community is questioned whether or not you feel it is abuse to have a teenaged girl pregnant or married, you all dance around the question. If you all have nothing to hide, why not give a straight forward answer?’”
LK: “It doesn’t apply to us. We have little boys. We have…from a nine-year-old boy to a one-year-old boy. That question doesn’t apply to us.”
ANCHOR [Turns her attention to Billy Jessop]: “Then why don’t you, as a representative of the ranch, answer that question?”
B. JESSOP: “Well, it’s a broad question. And you’re trying to make someone answer the question…”
[Crosstalk]
ANCHOR: “Okay, let me then ask you this question from Sandra: what do you consider abuse?”
That is a *studied* lack of transparency, right there. For my own part, I’d be less ill-at-ease if the FLDS members came right out and said, “If a girl is interested in marriage, and has proven herself mature enough for the commitment, we will support her.”
That’s a far cry from, ‘Er, um, that question doesn’t apply to me since I’ve fathered only a succession of boys. Next, please’ OR ‘As a representative of the ranch, I think that’s too broad a question.’
4) On reasons for removing children: I think your comments are right on the money. Polygamy among the parents isn’t sufficient reason to remove children from a home, and nor is it enough that parents be members of a cult.
I don’t know nearly as much about this case as I do about the conditions in Bountiful, BC, which is the community I discussed in an earlier thread. There, I provided evidence for my claims of trafficking and of grooming to sex slavery in that particular community. I also showed that six women in the Texas community came from Bountiful.
I think it’s a reasonable assumption that at least some of the rot that permeates life at Bountiful would be duplicated in another closed community run by some of the same leaders who operate based on the same principles.
Now don’t get me wrong: I do NOT implicitly trust the government. What’s more, I do see the mistreatment of people based on religious affiliation as a violation of the US Constitution (and the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms).
It sets a bad precedent.
I’m hesitant to agree with you, Stacy, and others who share your views concerning this particular situation, however, because I’m not convinced religion was the main impetus for either the raid or the subsequent activities of the state.
I think it is disgusting how these folks are treated. So WHAT if they have multiple wives. I mean who really cares? Does it affect the society as a whole? Solomon had multiple wives so did Jacob. I agree it is not something I would do. I hear so many say these folks are not christians. HOW can you say that? Do you know their hearts? Have you turned Jesus and looked into their hearts?Bible says, Faith without works is dead. I believe in good works too, not in terms of salvation but in living my life.
I wish folks would leave them alone and I wish the state would concentrate on those that are doing the abusing.
I whole heartily agree with Stacy. With what she wrote.
Notice the four reasons DFPS (Texas CPS) can legally seize a child:
1. an immediate danger to the physical health or safety of the child,
2. the child has been the victim of sexual abuse.
3. the parent or person who has possession of the child is currently using a controlled substance,
4. the parent or person who has possession of the child has permitted the child to remain on premises used for the manufacture of methamphetamine.
Texas does not claim that any of these things apply to the children in each home. Texas presented five currently under-aged girls they said were pregnant or had children. But Texas has had to admit two pregnant ‘teens’ were actually adults. One of those married teens married a 19 year old when she ws 16.
What they did was reclassify the entire ranch of 35 separate domiciles as a single household, and say that since five homes had a married 16 or 17 year old, all of them were guilty.
Texas also claimed this was rampant by submitting the records of a woman who gave birth in the 90s.
I don’t defend polygamy. I do defend the Constitutional rights of parents and children to be together and practice their religion, and I insist that the state follow the law. IF the state can reclassify 35 separate abodes and families as a single household, when they lived, slept, and ate under separate rooves, considered the husband in each home to be the priesthood leader of that home, then we are all in danger.
And while I don’t defend polygamy, and I do think those adult men married to 16 year olds should be prosecuted (all five of them), we don’t, actually, ‘all know’ what FLDS is all about. We know what a handful of very angry people who have left say it is all about. And I believe their stories are, for the most part, true (some of the details have morphed over time, and some of the newest most salacious details were never mentioned in their books or interviews anywhere until Texas needed something strong to justify their actions).
I say I believe the stories of former members are largely true- but I also believe that we do not discount the stories of those who remain in FLDS. It makes sense the stories of those who leave would be negative, because you don’t leave your home and religion if you were happy in it.
It’s also important to note that NONE of the former members telling us about FLDS have ever lived at YFZ. Most of them left before many of the YfZ couples who have lost their children were even in their teens (i.e. a decade ago).
Caroline Jessop left when her oldest daughter was 15. As soon as her daughter was 18, she went right back to YfZ. Why are her actions less significant than her mother’s?
Caroline Jessop’s husband may well have been an unpleasant old man. That doesn’t mean Lori Steed’s husband is. Flora Jessop’s father definitely abused her nearly twenty years ago- everybody admits that, including people who say they are currently FLDS, and they are sorry for it. That doesn’t mean that Louisa Jessop’s 24 year old husband is currently abusing his daughters.
People have a right to be accused and tried as *individuals* based on what they have done, not what their neighbors might have done two years ago or before they were even born.
They have lost their children, and some of them never even got to speak personally to CPS or any state representative or even their attorneys before it happened, because of the judge’s decision to have a mass, group hearing instead of the individual or at least family hearings they were entitled to.
People testified in court at those hearings that they had driver’s licenses and birth certificates, and Angie Voss (from CPS) said she didn’t have to accept them, not even certified birth certificates, and the Judge agreed.
Whatever you think of FLDS, this case is setting dangerous, horrible precedents for all of us, and people are being tried by innuendo instead of facts.
“Don’t many of us believe that the god-given roll of girls is to grow up and marry and have kids?”
I don’t know anyone who believes this to be the only purpose of women. Besides, the cultists abuse these God-given roles regardless.
Coffee, this matter goes far beyond trite matters such as cooking and sewing. Don’t give way to fear.
Coffee Catholic-You said it better than I ever could! I completely agree!
We must examine the possibilities from the action taken in Texas. It is not reacting in fear to respond with thoughtfulness and caution.
If you tend to get sleepy on a long drive, you take precautions to prevent that. You consider napping before the drive, you may drink coffee or bring a friend to chat with. It is not spreading fear to express caution to others who are making that same drive.
It is very disconcerting that people would discourage ‘connecting the dots’ so to speak. We will be persecuted and we ought to prepare for that. Do I need to give scripture references on preparedness? Don’t we all study Gods Word and *know* that we will be tried? Why should we not expect it and react pro-activly to prevent it and to make others aware? Isn’t this discussion ‘iron sharpening iron”?
I am baffled at the whole idea to quit thinking it is possible that religious persecution of one religion is indicative of possible persecution of another.
The ‘don’t think about it’ mentality is not wise. Walk around it, talk around it, do anything but address it? Not gonna happen!
I do think the World is coming for our dc. We must be diligent in applying Gods Word in our homes all the day long. We must live it out every moment of everyday.
Satan roams the earth looking for whom he can devour.
Michelle W
The whole situation is such a mess! I continue to pray for them – both that they would see the truth of Salvation in Christ and that they would stop being persecuted.
Here is a link to a story underscoring this post:
In the state of IL, 3,000 parents were placed on the list of child abusers in error. Essentially, one stroke of the pen sealed their fates.
In one case, a foster child claimed abuse when her foster parents made her do chores. The family spent $20,00 in legal fees to be cleared of the charges, and lost custody of the three girls they were planning to adopt….
http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=64364
Stacy, I think that your blog post title says it all: Guilty until proven Innocent”.
And as a Christian woman, my head is in no way in the sand over the distinct possibility that this can overflow into Christian circles. As I was reading with my 10 year old this morning about the Patriots’ defense of America against British rule, my heart and mind were hearkend to the condition of these United States today…and how fighting for our freedom is no longer a hallmark of the people of this country. We defend the rights of government rule and assumed law, but forget that the founding of our very country was because of the blood shed to preserve PERSONAL FREEDOM. This right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness includes the freedom of religion (and I agree with your strong statement, Stacy, that the FLDS is indeed a damnable “faith”, but it IS protected under our constitution!).
Like it or not, there are going to be faiths in our country that are contrary to Christianity…and there always have been. But we are a nation that has fought for and won this freedom, and I object strongly to this unapologetic, unconstitutional infringement upon Americans because they marry young (?), marry many (barf), and follow a foreign god (mercy, Lord).
It is simply not a state issue. The state needs to return the children and back off. This is NOT precedent we want set…
Annie-
Underage girls should never be allowed to marry even with parental consent??? What about Mary? She was very, very young when she married Joseph, 14 or 15 years.
To suggest that even 18-20 years shouldn’t be able to marry but ‘there’s nothing we can do about that’ is equally distressing. I cannot imagine refusing someone of this age the right to marry if they so choose (and of coarse with the blessings of their parents).
In our modern age I agree that many ‘teen’ aged young people are very immature. But let’s not throw the baby out with the bath water just yet! There are many who are very ready for marriage at that age. My 17 dd is far more mature than I was at 24 years old. To be sure it has to do with her God given personality and I how we have parented her as well. As much as I don’t think it ideal for her to marry yet, I do not think she is too immature to understand the vows of marriage and the permanent implications. Rather, she is still learning homemaking skills and I would like her to be more prepared for those things.
In our modern society we are delaying adulthood. It is sad that young adults are acting out intimate marital acts but refusing to commit to a life long partner so they can experience other partners in order to better know who they have the best fit (ahem, blushing here)
I don’t have an issue with the FLDS marrying at 16 or 17, I just want to know that it isn’t forced. I would like to know that these young women are willingly joining into the covenant of marriage.I want to see proof and not just hear that CPS thinks it is happening(meaning they are being forced).
I really enjoy that we are talking this through. I most definitely feel I am gleening from both sides although my opinion is still on the side of how inappropriately this has been handled in Texas.
Michelle W
1. In cleaning our children’s bedroom, if we come across something that indicates that our children are involved in some wrong doing, do we turn a blind eye to this? No, we would interviene, from love and concern.
Anonymous, the government is not my mother. The child is doing things in your home, not the government’s. In this country we have laws set up to protect our homes from government intrusion, and it increasingly appears that the government broke those laws.
And, in fact, those laws against search and seizure protect a freedom so vital that courts have ruled that evidence found on a search that violated those laws cannot be used in other cases.
2. Let’s say, that the phone call made on the FLDS group was a hoax. What the police found…should that be ignored?
First of all, we know that it was a hoax. We also know that law enforcement knew that Dale Barlow was in AZ and not on the ranch, and that the phone number ‘Sarah’ was using was a Colorado number that had been used before by a 33 year old single woman with no FLDS connections- and she had used the phone number to phone authorities with similar ‘damsel in distress’ hoax phone calls.
Secondly- what, exactly, do you think they ‘found’ on that visit? Do you know? Angie Voss says pregnant teens. Problem. CPS on April 29th was telling the press that they had TWO pregnant teens in custody. Bigger problem- BOTH pregnant ‘teens’ were adults (one is 22, one is 18). HUGE problem- in the documents Angie Voss submitted to the court at the 14 day hearing, she had both women listed- with their proper birth year. She knew then that her two pregnant teens were legal adults.
3. What about the fraud on the TX wefare system?
Um… what fraud? So far as I know, there is not only no evidence that any member of the YfZ community is on Welfare, the state hasn’t even made this charge. This is gossip. What about gossip?
4. What about the police who are still being lied to concerning the ages of the girls at the time of their “marriages”?
And you know this….how? Is ‘not being believed’ the same as ‘lying?’ CPS said Louisa and the Jeffs girl lied, but we now know that actually, CPS did.
We also have the testimony of 11 mental health workers with the state who are saying that they also witnessed CPS lying to the mothers. We have a court document from TRLA (an agency representing several mothers) pointing out that CPS accuses their clients of not revealing the names of their children and their ages when, in fact, TRLA sent them a list with that info electronically and made sure it was available at the court records office.
Since CPS in this case has a proven track record of lying, I am wondering why I should be so sure they are the ones telling me the truth here?
Here’s another point- lying about your age? It’s not one of the reasons the state can remove your children. The community has also only been in the state since 2004, and of the 20 ‘under-aged’ marriages the state has- all but five of them happened in another state when and where it wasn’t legally ‘under-aged.’
5. What about the doctor who delivered these babies and signed the birth certificates, and knew what was going on in this community all along? Are we forgetting that laws have been broken?
I’m not even sure what you’re talking about.
It’s not illegal for a doctor to deliver babies and sign their birth certificates. There is not evidence that they have been falsified, although there is evidence that CPS just doesn’t like them because they don’t revealwhat CPS wants to believe (and needs to prove in order to justify their massive use of manpower).
Laws have been broken? There are probably five cases of under-aged marriages in the community. So prosecute them and remove the father from those homes.
Polgamy may be breaking the law, but it is not one of the reasons for which the state can legally take away your children.
6. There seems to be over concern about our rights being violated.
No, I am concerned about the FLDS’ rights being violated, including the right of children to stay with their parents and siblings without being traumatized by CPS/police state actions such as occurred here.
7.I do not think the government is too worried about my plain dress, long hair, or bread made from scratch.
I read the reports from the hearings and I have seen quotes from the transcript. Angie Voss testifies that what she objects to is the FLDS belief system that teaches girls that their highest calling is to be a wife and mother, that teaches that children are a blessing, that birth control is wrong, and that men are the heads of their home. She says the children can never go home as long as their parents believe these things.
8. I feel that many are overlooking the rights of these children, to grow up with out fear of being given away to older men without their permission.
What proof do you have that this has happened in each of the families that lost their children? What proof do you have that it is going to happen in each of those families?
There are five under-aged marriages, and one of them was a 16 y.o. to a 19 y.o.- not an old man. Two were to men in their twenties. There was ONE case of a 16 year old married to what most of us would consider an old man.
So prosecute them. But it is not even legal to take away children because of what you think might happen in ten years. Legally, there has to be proof of abuse and an immediate danger.
The state is not just supposed to make things up as it goes along. It is supposed to abide by the law, and the law does not recognize ‘something bad might happen to these children ten to fifteen years from now’ as a valid cause ot remove children.
9. The mothers of these precious children need to make a choice. They need to decide to remain living within this cult, or leave, with their children, begin a new life…in freedom. The mothers have decided to choose their way of life over their children’s safety. (That I do not understand. )
IN other words, without any evidence or proof that each family is guilty, you have decided their guilt and their punishment. You have no evidence that most of these children were not safe, and these mothers have not chosen ‘their’ way over their children’s safety, they have chosen what they believe is the best and safest way for their children to live.
That is a parents’ right and responsibility.
There are so many layers to this situation.
1.The leaaders who have “cooked up” a money making scheme to build their fortress,
Whether or not this is true- it is not legal cause for the state to take away children.
2.Have multiple children, outside of legal marriage, claim to be single mothers, get welfare for the children and single mothers,
There is NO evidence that YfZ ranch community members even receive Welfare- in fact, there is plenty of evidence that they do NOT.
And, once again, this doesn’t happen to be one of the legal reasons the state can take away your children.
3. Convince the men and women that they are doing God’s work by taking multiple wives and intermarrying first cousins. We need to remember that laws have been broken!!
Polygamy is not one of the reasons the state can take away your kids. you may not like it, but it is the law that the state is supposed to remove children only when certain conditions have been met- polygamy just isn’t one of them.
As for first cousins, have you any evidence at all that any of the members of YfZ have married their first cousins? I know that over in Utah or Arizona Warren Jeffs performed a wedding ceremony between 14 year old Elissa Wall and her 19 year old cousin-and that’s why he’s in jail.
Do you understand that you can’t take away my children because of something my preacher did in another state to another family not my own?
Do you know that marrying first cousins is not considered illegal in a number of states?
Do you know that it is not a legal cause for removing children from the home?
The solution to ‘laws being broken’ is not to give the state the freedom to break even more of them.
Gloria: Many cultures practice arranged marriages. They are not inherently abusive. It’s just different. Believing in arranged marriages is also not cause for removal of children from the home.
Yes, former members have been very angry and have said many things about the group. Of course. You don’t leave if you are perfectly happy with your life and everything you believe. Because Flora Jessop’s father abused her is not cause to take away her third cousin Lori Jessop’s children twenty years later (I don’t know their relationship- the point is, each set of parents have the right to be considered individually- what are THEIR parenting practices, not what did somebody else do).
Many others stay in the group. Caroline Jessop left the group when her eldest was 15, and as soon as that girl was 18 she went right back.
If somebody leaves my church and says hateful things about it, you do not get to swoop in and remove my children without showing that those allegations have something specific to do with ME and what I DO.
Alyzza:
1. Identification- We are supposed to be innocent until proven guilty. There is something deeply flawed with a court system that can say, “Because some people have committed identity theft, we are free to believe you might have as well, so we do not have to accept your certified birth certificates, driver’s licenses, tax returns, or other proofs of identity, because we wish to believe you are liars.’
Furthermore, it turns out that the two pregnant ‘teen’s the state had in custody are not only adults, but the state knew this all the time it was telling the gullible public they were minors. Angie Voss submitted a document to the court with the names and correct birth years for both women at the 14 day hearing- but still refused to acknowledge they were adults until their babies were born and then seized on the basis that they were the ‘minor children of minor children.’
2) On violence in the FLDS: Authorities seized what they initially identified as a “cyanide poisoning document.” Members of the FLDS claim it was part of a first aid kit, which it very well might have been; but to an unschooled police officer rifling through a stack of documents, it must have looked ominous – serious enough that it was specifically listed as seized evidence.
This makes me laugh. I don’t believe it ‘must’ have looked ominous at all. This was just something they released to the public to inflame public opinion, not something I believe they really tried in court.
They took 700 armed police officers into the ranch on a phone call they knew had been made from a phone in Colorado previously used to make other such hoax phone calls. They waited four or five days after that emergency phone call to go in.
There is no real reason to assume the only reason the first aide manual papers were mentioned is because they ‘looked ominous enough to an untrained police officer.’ This is up there with the sex beds in the temple story- or down there with it.
“So although the FLDS doesn’t have a history of violence, authorities might have feared future violence. It has certainly happened before during other raids.”
Can you give an example of raids on a known nonviolent community with a history of passive resistance that turned into violence during a raid?
3) On transparency: Women from the FLDS community have appeared on Larry King Live and other programs. All of them – I’ve heard not one exception – have played coy, pausing after hard-hitting questions only to offer evasive answers. I’d like to add, here, that the men are just as guilty of it.
(I’m stopping here becaus ethis is too long).
They are well aware that CPS and law enforcement is taking down their every word and will use it against them in order to keep their children forever. They cannot with safety address the question at all- they have to keep the focus on their specific families and why CPS has nothing to accuse their specific families of.
They also are well aware of just how hostile and irrational public opinion is.
you say you would respect them more if they said something like, “when a girl says she’s ready adn shows she’s mature,” but we have somebody else here insisting that even 18-20 is too young, and the laws in Texas protect abuse by permitting 16 year olds to marry.
Not being transparent on national television is also, oddly enough, not one of the legal reasons the state can remove your children from your home and keep them in foster care.
Oh, and for the person suggesting that the state could have removed the men, the men offered to do just that- all leave the ranch and let CPS stay there with the women and children while the investigation continued. It was an interesting thing. While supposedly the ranch is this walled prison compound designed to keep people trapped inside, Angie Voss refused this offer and said it was too large and open and there was no way to keep people from coming and going at will.
One more thing- to those who believe these people practice Welfare fraud by signing up as single mothers- while there is no evidence the YfZ people have done this and plenty of evidence that they do not, I think it’s interesting when I see this accusation coming from people who also insist they have no personal identification. Can’t be both.
And how is it welfare fraud to sign up as a single mother when th state doesn’t recognize your marriage as legal? That’s an academic question and has very little to do with the YfZ community, and even less to do with removing these children from their homes.
‘How much longer before those of us who don’t have TVs, bake our own bread, sew our own clothes, raise our own food and wear long skirts will end up in the spotlight as “cultists” that must be stopped and “brainwashed” women that must be rescued?’
Is there any reason to believe that any person has at any time been placed under police investigation for baking their own bread? For growing their own vegetables? For chosing not to wear a shorter skirt?
Do we honestly believe that if the FLDS had never been connected with abusive and illegal practices – such as polygamy, statuatory rape, tax evasion, abuse of the welfare system etc – that they would be under investigation now?
Incidentally, the description in the quote – long skirts, growing organic veggies, baking bread, chosing counter-cultural entertainment ( TV? no thanks) really brought to mind a typical hippie community!
And we know the hippies have been around a long, long time and no one has tried to prosecute them for their counter-cultural choices regarding clothes, entertainment and so on.
I haven’t owned a TV set for over ten years and no government officials have been banging on my door.
I’m afraid that in our eagerness to defend our values regarding preference issues in the Christian
faith (choice of clothing, and other lifestyle issues) we might – just might – be losing sight of what really makes us Christians: our faith in Jesus alone as the only way to true salvation.
In the light of the fact that some of our family values seem to resonate with those of the FLDS, it now seems to be okay for us to defend highly questionable theology, to defend polygamy …. .
I wander if we would defend our Christian sisters who differ from us on preference issues (not sin issues) with as much eagerness ? I mean those who share our saving faith. But perhaps not the desire for an agrarian lifesyle or our particular views on how to educate our daughters.
Which issues are primary and which secondary in our faith?
I am really concerned that as Christian women our attitude towards the government and the laws of the nation should be Biblical – based on God’s unchanging Word which is relevant at all times and in all situations.
The Bible clearly instructs us to obey the laws of the country in which we live.
The only exception to this would be, in my understanding, if the government tries to make us do something that would be a clear violation of a direct command given to us in Scripture.
And, as I’ve written before, to the best of my knowledge, the New Testament was NOT written at the time when the government was run by Christians. Nor were the laws based on godly, Christian principles. Anything but.
AND YET we find in SCRIPTURE
- that we are to obey the laws of the land
- that the law is God’s instrument to protect us
- that we should not fear the law when we are leading righteous lives
‘There has been a lot of talk about how parents are in control unless they are being abusive or acting against the best interests of the child.
Who decides the “best interests of the child”? I would like to think I do, when we are talking about my child.’
Renee, I am sure you are a wonderful Christian with your children’s true best interests at heart and that they are safe in your care and supervision without any interference from the government.
But what about the many millions of kids throughout the world for whom this is not true? Think about for how many kids in your own country alone are being abused right at this moment – quite possibly by their parents or with the knowledge of their parents.
I believe that withdrawing ALL government inspection/ investigation from families will open up untold opportunities for abuse and exploitation of children.
Unfortunately, we live in a sin-cursed world. In my understanding, one of the protections that has been granted to us in this world is the legal system.
That’s why for example, a wife would have the right to apeal to the authorities if her husband was physically abusing her; I don’t think that this undermines her husband’s leadership role, it merely prevents him from exploiting his authority over his wife.
We may not agree with many things that our governments now permit but have we actually been compelled by government to do anything that goes against our beliefs?
I know that I haven’t but I realise this answer may be diferent for different people.
I do believe that government intervention in the choices that parents make on behalf of their children should only be for the purpose of protecting chldren, and not for the purpose of prescribing lifestyle.
‘I do not agree with all the lifestyle choices of the FLDS members, but in a free country, they may raise their children freely.’
I would say sure, as long as they’re not breaking the law.
‘Obvious, physical, abuse demands our attention but does it demand the attention of the government’?
I would say yes based on my understanding on what the Bible teaches concerning government and its responsibility to protect.But I am open to hearing other views.
“Oh, and for the person suggesting that the state could have removed the men, the men offered to do just that- all leave the ranch and let CPS stay there with the women and children while the investigation continued.”
They did? For certain? Well then, my opinion of this case, for the time being at least, is quite clear: let them go.
I think you summed up the main points we all agree/disagreee on pretty well. I keep tossing around the “disagreeable” points in my head. I still can’t decide what the clear answer is. Even prayer about the subject hasn’t opened up any new insights. So, I just keep praying that God will cause this to go the way He knows is best.
“I would not want to be involved in a polygamist relationship myself, but this is an option that the Lord permits.”
This is a grave statement. The Lord is VERY clear about what constitutes a sacred union and what does not. He gave Adam ONE wife; He spoke over and over about what one union between ONE man and ONE woman would look like. Do you think all practices back then are acceptable now, or that everything done in the Bible and not challenged by God was, by default, considered good behavior by Him? God allowed Cain and Abraham to marry their sisters; He didn’t “chastise” Lot for offering up his daughters for rape, or those same daughters later when they raped their father after he was drunk to “continue the family line”. Does that mean they were right? I have to say, of all the statements I’ve seen defending the FLDS, making allowances for their behavior by trying to lighten God’s Word is by far the most alarming.
And let me say this: it seems to me that many are being taken in by the “innocent” appearance of these mothers. It’s one thing to worry about their governmental rights; I agree on that. Heck, after hearing the men offer themselves in place of the children, I agree more than ever! But making allowances for their blatant twisting and ignoring of God’s Word? Folks, the government aside, we should all be in agreement that the FLDS’s behavior is unGodly. They claim to know Christ, yet blatantly ignore and twist some of His teachings; this is a very grave sin. In this sense, they’re really no better than Oprah. And, last I heard, nobody on this board was particularly defensive of her. If you happened to be one of those who agreed that Oprah was in great spiritual danger, yet are tempted to defend the cult women and perhaps even claim that they have not sinned that greatly (or at all), I ask you, in love and concern, to stop and think: why is this? Is it just because these ladies are better than Oprah at dressing innocently and putting on a look of utter guilessness?
“In the Lord’s law, there is no commandment against polygamy. There is no though shalt not commit polygamy. I would not want to be involved in a polygamist relationship myself, but this is an option that the Lord permits.”
I have to disagree here. Though there isn’t a “thou shalt not practice polygamy” verse for us to go to, God’s Word is clear that He created marriage as an exclusive relationship between one man and one woman. Period. We can see all the disasters and heartaches throughout Scripture that were caused by polygamous relationships.
I don’t have a lot of time to devote to this subject right now, but I wanted to make it clear that polygamy is not “an option the Lord permits.”
Stacy and Jennifer,
I feel perhaps you are viewing polygamy through the filter of what THIS culture of today finds to be acceptable, rather than through the lens of what Scripture actually teaches. This is how I felt too, until someone provoked me to rethink the matter from a strictly Scriptural POV.
I’m a product of this culture in many ways. I find the whole concept of my husband having other wives to be highly distasteful. I also feel that when the LORD says that for the cause of marriage, a man shall leave his mother and father and cleave to his wife and the 2 (two!) shall become 1 flesh, that He has set the standard of His best for marriage.
Still, though King David was chastised for committing adultery/murder, he was never chastised for having more than one wife and the LORD said that he was a man after His heart. Should the state of Israel have removed his children from him?
The LORD formed the 12 tribes of Israel through Jacob’s polygamous marriage(s?) to Rachel and Leah, even their 2 concubines. I think it is pretty plain to see that Jacob and his wives had their troubles in this relationship, but where do you see that the LORD forbade it or even disapproved of it?
Clearly, the ideal is 1 man/ 1 woman equals a marriage. But I still can find no scriptural basis for illegalizing polygamy. Can you? I would be glad to see it if you are able, because when I was confronted by this question, it was to my surprise that I could not.
I’m not a woman, so I don’t expect you to post this comment, but I did want to thank you for bringing a contrary point of view.
I see the fundamental threat here as one of statism: the belief that the state has total authority over the lives of all its citizens. (As an aside, yes FLDS is an evil cult. Why do some Christians think it is so much better if the children are launched into hell through indoctrination by a godless humanist state?)
In your post, “Old Enough?” the msnbc newsperson asked a revealing question, “Does the state have the right. . . ?” This phrasing needs to be challenged, because states don’t have rights. States have power.
Individuals have rights, and those rights [should] define the limits of the state’s exercise of power. States have legitimate authority to exert force for the purposes and within the bounds set by God.
As soon as we start thinking in terms of states having rights, like individual citizens, we have muddled the terms of our argument. It’s not the state’s rights versus the individual’s rights. It’s the state’s power versus the limits set by God in terms of the individual’s rights.
People (including untaught and mistaught Christians) who think it’s within the purview of the state’s authority to solve every personal, family and social problem are statists. They have put the secular humanist state in the place of God. Perhaps this is why they seem to view their favored political candidates Messianically.
Mainemom, I’m very surprised that you’re still pursuing this. I challenge you to find a place in the Bible in which God chastises Abraham for marrying his sister or scolds Lot and his family for promoting/commiting rape. If you can’t, will you return here suggesting that incest and rape are perhaps acceptable and it’s just our culture that has them wrong?
Jennifer,
I am not pursuing anything, just clarifying my thoughts following your previous response. I do not understand your hostility. I have no desire to engage in a hostile debate and don’t believe Stacy’s blog would be an appropriate venue for such. Best wishes to you.
Mainemom, I find your suggestion about polygamy rather alarming, to be perfectly frank; I’m sorry if that translated to hostility. However, I have never expressed any wish to engage in debate and I’m surprised you’d think so. I’m even more suprised that a married woman such as you would even for a moment suggest that multiple spouses would be an acceptable practice. Polygamy never came about until after the fall and it produced nothing but a lot of unGodly sex for men and misery for women. God created marriage for the joy of men and women, so why would He approve of something that bought shallow pleasure for men and nothing resembling security or happiness for women? Solomon grew spoiled off his many wives; it’s really no wonder he went astray. I can’t think of any Biblical circumstance in which polygamy produced fruit of joy or Godliness. The proof is in the spoils.
Lastly, I’d ask you to focus on whether or not God ever PERMITS polygamy, not whether He forbids it. It’s been my experience that if there’s a certain practice you have reason to be wary of, when consulting God’s word on the matter, you should focus more on trying to find proof that He approves, not that He never literally forbids it; otherwise, you’re using what I term loophole logic. You personally have nothing to fear from polygamy, being in a healthy monogamous relationship yourself, but it’s ruined many other lives and I don’t think it’s a matter in God’s law to be taken lightly.
Blessings to you
Hi Jennifer,
I am going to email you off of this blog as Stacy specifically states in #3 of her comment guidelines that this is not a debate blog, and though the tone of your last reply is much more pleasant (thank you :), you are still desiring to show me why my view point is wrong and yours is right. Last I checked, this is what constitutes a debate, whether friendly or otherwise.
Talk to you soon.
Thanks, MainMom. You are right – while some of our discussions here may seem “debate-ish” in that we have people discussing opposing views on a topic, YSC is not a debate blog. In other words, if folks start sounding like they’re arguing or getting snippy, I’d prefer they take it elsewhere. I don’t have time to police it and most folks don’t have time to read it.
We welcome dissenting views that are respectful and informative – but we ask that folks stay on topic and refrain from being argumentative.
I have already firmly stated that YSC’s position is that polygamy is not part of God’s will for marriage. Personally, the thought of it turns my stomach and I would view a man who pursued a polygamous relationship as adulterous. Therefore, that subject is not up for debate here.
I truly appreciate that you respect our stand and don’t wish to debate it with Jennifer here. And I do recognize that you are not trying to promote polygamy, but that you have a different view of whether or not God forbids it.
Perhaps I’ll bring the subject of polygamy up as a post at some point – if I can keep myself from getting angry with men who pursue it! LOL!
I surely don’t know the details of this case, but I do know something about the work of child protection workers. A couple of things stand out in this case.
The founder of this group was found guilty of facilitation of rape (I’m not sure of the legal-ese) of a teenage girl. This apparently wasn’t an isolated case, and it was the practice of this group to arrange marriages betwen older men and women below the age of consent.
sexual activity with an older man can constitute sexual abuse. I don’t know if their marriages were civilly recognized, but that might make a difference as well.
When questioned, the parents of these children were evasive and incomplete in their answers.
Like it or not–and we all know the horror stories–the state has the obligation to protect children who are exposed to predators. If the parents had been less evasive, perhaps more discretion could have been used.
In my experience the attempt is made to keep non-offending mothers and children together if the offenders are not able to have access to the children (or the mother if the situation involves domestic violence). Failure to protect a child from abuse is a form of abuse recognized by law.
I feel for these families, and I hope the mothers and non-offending parents are reunited.
A late comment to Ginger: yes, polygamy does matter. It may not affect society, but it affects women individually; it SCARS them permanently and that is a very big deal. It is also illegal by both secular and Godly law, all reasons why you should be very much against it.
Jennifer